rcm4453
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:35 pm
Leaf Number: 304133
Location: Wayzata, MN

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:34 pm

Funny you should mention that, a guy at my work would do that with his Prius. This was back when I first got my Volt, he stopped me one day and wanted to know what it's like having EV drive. Of course I told him how awesome it is and that I was addicted to it!

SageBrush
Posts: 1482
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:00 pm

Please start a separate thread to continue this topic, and leave the current thread to discuss Prime Vs LEAF

rmay635703 wrote:I used .5553 gallons of gas
And 12kwhr from the wall to go
Over 99 miles

0.5553 x 25lbs + 12kwhr (at wall) x 1.5 = 31.88 lbs of CO2

Something about your numbers is not adding up.
12 kWh from the wall is at most 11 kWh in the battery.*
If you traveled 60 miles on EV, that is 5.5 miles a kWh
The remaining 40 miles of HV using 0.55 gallons is then 72 mpg

These do not look like reproducible numbers in a Volt unless undisclosed, atypical driving and/or conditions are present.
Strong tailwinds or unsafe truck drafting comes to mind as possibilities.

*Gen 1 Volt ?
IIRC 10.6 kWh usable in the battery is 12 - 13 kWh from the wall, although I cannot remember if that is L1 or L2
Last edited by SageBrush on Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

GRA
Posts: 7542
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:30 pm

SageBrush wrote:
rmay635703 wrote:I used .5553 gallons of gas
And 12kwhr from the wall to go
Over 99 miles

0.5553 x 25lbs + 12kwhr (at wall) x 1.5 = 31.88 lbs of CO2

Something about your numbers is not adding up.
12 kWh from the wall is at most 11 kWh in the battery.
If you traveled 60 miles on EV, that is 5.5 miles a kWh
The remaining 40 miles of HV using 0.55 gallons is then 72 mpg

These do not look like reproducible numbers in a Volt unless undisclosed, atypical driving and/or conditions are present.

Assuming someone's goal is to use the least amount of gas possible and thus reduce emissions from same, using EPA numbers to eliminate individual variation (as always YMMV, and some will do a lot better or worse, which applies to BOTH cars), the Prime uses less gas than a 2011-2012 Volt anytime you drive it 66 miles or more between charges, assuming both cars start fully charged. Note: I use the EPA Hwy rating for the Prime for gas miles, rather than combined or city, and either EPA Hwy or what a large number of people have reported getting (forget which) for the Volt 1, as I couldn't find the EPA HWY rating for it off-hand. 40 mpg is either equal or greater than the EPA number.

25+ 53X = 35 +40x

53X = 10 +40X

13X = 10

X = 10/13 = 0.769238

Substituting for X, at 66 miles or more between charges the Prime will burn less gas than the Volt. In 2013 the Volt's AER increased to 38 miles, making X = 1.0 and the crossover distance for the Prime to use less gas between charges becomes 78 miles. It's 160 miles for the Prime over the Volt 2.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7542
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:51 pm

On the topic of the relative salability of the Prime, here's an article from IEVS today:
Nearly 103,000 Plug-In EVs Sold Worldwide In August, Toyota Prius Prime On Top
https://insideevs.com/nearly-103000-plug-in-evs-sold-worldwide-in-august-almost-a-new-record/

The Prime comes in first at 35,109, followed by the LEAF at 33,455 and the Model S at 31,630. I expect to see both the first two ramp up considerably, the Prime due to increased inventory and the LEAF due to the 2nd Gen's arrival.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
Posts: 1482
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:48 pm

GRA wrote:Assuming someone's goal is to use the least amount of gas possible and thus reduce emissions from same,
If the question is emissions then it does not make sense to ignore emissions from electricity.

The archetypal Volt owner as on display at their website forum ignores emissions, is often a climate change denialist, ignores electricity use, and will only discuss petroleum use. Oh, and typically refrains from mentioning the GM SUV they own and drive on long trips or when they are towing a boat en-route to polluting some lake. Mention Nox and ~ 90% of them will not have a clue what you are talking about. Only a handful will have any awareness of their local electric power plant energy mix and emission profile.

The car represents their priorities well, which as a fair generalization boils down to being anti-OPEC/pro "domestic" car and energy but otherwise ignorant -- and proud of it.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

SageBrush
Posts: 1482
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:48 pm

Any problem with putting the Volt in a separate thread !?
GRA wrote:It's 160 miles for the Prime over the Volt 2.


You have an algebraic error.

In addition, your highway assumptions are wrong. Here is the correct data for the 2017 volt
https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_ ... 789&flag=1
Page 27 is the Highway EV
46.7 miles using 16.76 kWh from the wall on L2

Page 22 is Highway gasoline
40.8 mpg*

So the correct calc for your break-even petroleum use is
25+53x = 46.7 + 40.8x
12.2x = 21.7
x = 1.778688525
miles = 25+53*1.778688525 = 119.27

However ...
An additional 10.46 kWh is consumed by the Volt compared to the Prime in those 119 miles
A prime can travel 25*10.46/6.3 = 41.5 EV miles on those kwh so the correct calc after adjustment for equal kWh use would be
(25+41.5) +53x = 46.7 +40.8x
12.2x = -19.8
The conclusion should be obvious ... and in fact mirrors the differences between the cars in MPGe, as expected.


Just for fun
Let's say I didn't hate GM, and would have considered a Volt for my 90 mile commute
Volt:
46.7 miles in EV using 16.76 kwh, then 43.3 miles using gasoline at 40.8 mpg so 1.06 gallons
Prime:
66.5 miles in EV using the same 16.7 kWh, then 23.5 miles at 53 mpg so 0.4434 gallons
Or if we ignore the discrepant electricity consumption, the Prime consumes 65/53 = 1.226 gallons


See the issue ? The Volt is only competitive with the Prime if electricity consumption is ignored ... which is retarded.

*raw data is discounted 30% to arrive at Monroney values
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

DarthPuppy
Posts: 483
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:45 pm
Delivery Date: 11 Aug 2013

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:54 pm

I think there is a lot of truth to the 'gateway drug' analogy.

Our first dipping of the toe into these waters was a Toyota hybrid. While that did not give us any meaningful EV driving, it warmed us up to the benefits of adopting these newer technologies and gave us comfort that companies like Toyota were deploying these techs in very reliable cars that provided good value. That experience made it easier for us to give the BEV and PHEV models available at the time (mid 2013) a try. We liked several of the options but decided on the Leaf. Now I'm mostly only interested in PHEV or BEV for future purchases as I'm fairly well hooked.

I think shifting the general population from ICE will go faster with good intermediary steps that serve as gateway drugs. Grant exposure to the benefits of BEV while addressing the range anxiety at a reasonable price point. And as some have noted, cars like the Prime are providing very good value for the consumers for whom they work well. Some will be able to make the leap to a BEV, often thanks to having more than one car that can help with the concept of the sometimes needed longer range. But many in one car situations will need that gateway drug.

EVdriver4life
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:24 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Oct 2017

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:45 pm

SageBrush wrote:Any problem with putting the Volt in a separate thread !?
GRA wrote:It's 160 miles for the Prime over the Volt 2.


You have an algebraic error.

In addition, your highway assumptions are wrong. Here is the correct data for the 2017 volt
https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_ ... 789&flag=1
Page 27 is the Highway EV
46.7 miles using 16.76 kWh from the wall on L2

Page 22 is Highway gasoline
40.8 mpg*

So the correct calc for your break-even petroleum use is
25+53x = 46.7 + 40.8x
12.2x = 21.7
x = 1.778688525
miles = 25+53*1.778688525 = 119.27

However ...
An additional 10.46 kWh is consumed by the Volt compared to the Prime in those 119 miles
A prime can travel 25*10.46/6.3 = 41.5 EV miles on those kwh so the correct calc after adjustment for equal kWh use would be
(25+41.5) +53x = 46.7 +40.8x
12.2x = -19.8
The conclusion should be obvious ... and in fact mirrors the differences between the cars in MPGe, as expected.


Just for fun
Let's say I didn't hate GM, and would have considered a Volt for my 90 mile commute
Volt:
46.7 miles in EV using 16.76 kwh, then 43.3 miles using gasoline at 40.8 mpg so 1.06 gallons
Prime:
66.5 miles in EV using the same 16.7 kWh, then 23.5 miles at 53 mpg so 0.4434 gallons
Or if we ignore the discrepant electricity consumption, the Prime consumes 65/53 = 1.226 gallons


See the issue ? The Volt is only competitive with the Prime if electricity consumption is ignored ... which is retarded.

*raw data is discounted 30% to arrive at Monroney values




Ok so let's say it is 119 miles.......how often do people drive 119 miles or more on a daily basis? So for most the Gen 2 Volt will be more efficient and use less gas then the Prime!

Why even split hairs over which car is more efficient when in EV mode?! Driving on electric is pennies on the dollar per mile for most of us anyway. If both cars are charged using renewable energy source then it doesn't even matter!

Not only that.........

- The Volt is much more fun car to drive than the slower accelerating Prius Prime.

-Toyota has skimped on the amount of batteries 8.8 kWH vs 18.4 kWH (Volt), less battery range 25 miles vs 53 mile(Volt)

-The cooling system of the Prius Prime batteries is cheapo passive air like that of Nissan Leaf so expect more troubles with battery degradation while the Volt’s batteries (with TMS) with over 7 years on the road have suffered very little degradation.

-The Prime has less powerful electric motors than the Volt’s dual electric motors leaves it well behind when accelerating and merging.

-Toyota Prius Prime is not as planted as the Volt in terms of agility and turning.

-The cabin in Prius Prime is noisier than the Volt when driven in an average California freeways. The Prius feels like it is made of cheapo econobox plastic materials.


Well, the price difference explains it all. You get what you pay for. After the Federal Tax Credits and State Rebates, you’ll get the Volt at a net of less than $24,000 if you’re in California.

LeftieBiker
Posts: 7344
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:35 pm

Do you Volt fanatics really want to be filtered? Yes, the Volt probably should have been included in the topic, but it wasn't. Feel free to start a Volt vs Prime Ultimate Fighting topic...
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

GRA
Posts: 7542
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:37 pm

SageBrush wrote:Any problem with putting the Volt in a separate thread !?
GRA wrote:It's 160 miles for the Prime over the Volt 2.


You have an algebraic error.

In addition, your highway assumptions are wrong. Here is the correct data for the 2017 volt
https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_ ... 789&flag=1
Page 27 is the Highway EV <snip>

I'm not seeing the numbers you quote on page 27. On page 26 it shows 43.6 mpg for a test labeled SC03, and on 28 it shows the 46.7 you mention for CD highway, but I'm not sure if that's the offical EPA highway number, as I believe they also include US06 into the mix for that and then round. I'm going to try and find the official range numbers they released - I think IEVS included them.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Return to “Pictures, Videos”