SageBrush
Posts: 1221
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:23 pm

EVdriver4life wrote:Why even split hairs over which car is more efficient when in EV mode?! Driving on electric is pennies on the dollar per mile for most of us anyway. If both cars are charged using renewable energy source then it doesn't even matter!


Some EV owners pay 25 - 40 cents per kWh for grid electricity. If the car is inefficient some of them buy gasoline instead.

That is not my situation. I want my car to reduce the pollution I am causing when I drive to work
Compared to the Prime, the Volt leads to 39% more CO2 emissions,
265% more Nox and Sox emissions

My old Honda Fit is superior to the Volt in these aspects.

I have PV. It is no excuse to be wasteful since generation I do not use reduces local power plant generation to serve a neighbor.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

rmay635703
Posts: 409
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:43 pm

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:16 pm

Does anyone besides me see the pic of my dash attached in my previous post? (which is usually saying I used 3% more fuel than measured at the pump)
SageBrush wrote:Mention Nox and ~ 90% of them will not have a clue what you are talking about. Only a handful will have any awareness of their local electric power plant energy mix and emission profile.


Based on supply side factors including incidentals at the refinery
The creation and delivery of A gallon of gasoline to your station adds up to 100 grams of NOx per gallon into the environment.

Even the Bay Area refineries make 13x more pollution than expected levels despite being atypical "advanced" refineries.
The mathematical only approach (guessing) to refinery pollution has failed but despite folks measuring output at stacks raising the red flag even the Bay Area is crippled politically to address the main source of pollution in the bay (which is not vehicles)

Few people are aware of the extreme pollution levels created during extraction, refining, storage and transport of fuel.

Hence why being more efficient outweighs many consumer side pollution metrics.

EVdriver4life
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:24 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Oct 2017

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:26 pm

SageBrush wrote:
EVdriver4life wrote:Why even split hairs over which car is more efficient when in EV mode?! Driving on electric is pennies on the dollar per mile for most of us anyway. If both cars are charged using renewable energy source then it doesn't even matter!


Some EV owners pay 25 - 40 cents per kWh for grid electricity. If the car is inefficient some of them buy gasoline instead.

That is not my situation. I want my car to reduce the pollution I am causing when I drive to work
Compared to the Prime, the Volt leads to 39% more CO2 emissions,
265% more Nox and Sox emissions

My old Honda Fit is superior to the Volt in these aspects.

I have PV. It is no excuse to be wasteful since generation I do not use reduces local power plant generation to serve a neighbor.



Again you're splitting hairs about the difference in efficiency when both cars are in EV mode. It doesn't matter anyway because the slight efficiency gained with the Prime in EV mode is offset by it using more gas then what a typical Volt driver uses. Most people drive less then 119 miles per day, Volt will use less gas as it has twice the electric range of the Prime, Volt wins hands down for the majority of owners.

Not only that, the more electric miles driven the better as far as pollution is concerned. Doesn't really matter that the Prime get's a better MPG rating when using gas since that's what causes the MOST pollution.

SageBrush
Posts: 1221
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:45 pm

rmay635703 wrote:The creation and delivery of A gallon of gasoline to your station adds up to 100 grams of NOx per gallon into the environment.

"Up to" is always a red flag, but do you have references ?
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

SageBrush
Posts: 1221
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:49 pm

EVdriver4life wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
EVdriver4life wrote:Why even split hairs over which car is more efficient when in EV mode?! Driving on electric is pennies on the dollar per mile for most of us anyway. If both cars are charged using renewable energy source then it doesn't even matter!


Some EV owners pay 25 - 40 cents per kWh for grid electricity. If the car is inefficient some of them buy gasoline instead.

That is not my situation. I want my car to reduce the pollution I am causing when I drive to work
Compared to the Prime, the Volt leads to 39% more CO2 emissions,
265% more Nox and Sox emissions

My old Honda Fit is superior to the Volt in these aspects.

I have PV. It is no excuse to be wasteful since generation I do not use reduces local power plant generation to serve a neighbor.



Again you're splitting hairs about the difference in efficiency when both cars are in EV mode. It doesn't matter anyway because the slight efficiency gained with the Prime in EV mode is offset by it using more gas then what a typical Volt driver uses. Most people drive less then 119 miles per day, Volt will use less gas as it has twice the electric range of the Prime, Volt wins hands down for the majority of owners.

Not only that, the more electric miles driven the better as far as pollution is concerned. Doesn't really matter that the Prime get's a better MPG rating when using gas since that's what causes the MOST pollution.

I apologize for confusing you with facts. Carry on.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

SageBrush
Posts: 1221
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:13 pm

SageBrush wrote:
rmay635703 wrote:The creation and delivery of A gallon of gasoline to your station adds up to 100 grams of NOx per gallon into the environment.

"Up to" is always a red flag, but do you have references ?


https://www.citepa.org/old/forums/egtei ... 250204.pdf

Image

The table cannot be read directly ...
Some refineries produce their own steam and electricity for process inputs. The inputs are ~ 18% of the source oil energy content.
If NG is the main input fuel then Nox and Sox emissions approach zero
This table (I think) is based on heavy oil feedstock. A GJ is ~ 277 kWh. 33.7 kWh in a gallon
So 18 gram of Nox emissions per 8.22/0.18 = 45.6 gallons of refined petroleum

Compare to Nox emissions related to electricity production from coal.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

LeftieBiker
Posts: 6942
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:31 am

Ok, this topic has jumped several sharks and a guppie. Bye.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

EVdriver4life
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:24 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Oct 2017

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:31 am

SageBrush wrote:
EVdriver4life wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
Some EV owners pay 25 - 40 cents per kWh for grid electricity. If the car is inefficient some of them buy gasoline instead.

That is not my situation. I want my car to reduce the pollution I am causing when I drive to work
Compared to the Prime, the Volt leads to 39% more CO2 emissions,
265% more Nox and Sox emissions

My old Honda Fit is superior to the Volt in these aspects.

I have PV. It is no excuse to be wasteful since generation I do not use reduces local power plant generation to serve a neighbor.



Again you're splitting hairs about the difference in efficiency when both cars are in EV mode. It doesn't matter anyway because the slight efficiency gained with the Prime in EV mode is offset by it using more gas then what a typical Volt driver uses. Most people drive less then 119 miles per day, Volt will use less gas as it has twice the electric range of the Prime, Volt wins hands down for the majority of owners.

Not only that, the more electric miles driven the better as far as pollution is concerned. Doesn't really matter that the Prime get's a better MPG rating when using gas since that's what causes the MOST pollution.

I apologize for confusing you with facts. Carry on.



The problem is you don't have your facts right. Sure, in your situation the Prime produces less pollution but that's not the case for the majority of drivers.

If someone had a daily round trip commute of 40 miles (without destination charging) they wouldn't burn any gas at all in the gen 2 Volt. If they had the Prime they would be burning gas every day. This scenario will the case for a MAJORITY of drivers, hence why I said the Volt 2 is more efficient overall.

Sorry but it's totally false that burning gas produces less pollution then what an EV does running off battery power. You can try and point out worse case scenarios all day long to TRY and prove your point. The fact is that the grid is getting cleaner and cleaner every year in the U.S. so it would be EXTREMELY unusual case where someone running an EV is producing more pollution then someone burning gas in their Prius. As the years go by and the grid gets cleaner in this country you will even see less such unusual cases. So yes.............the more EV miles driven in this country THE BETTER for our environment.

You want proof?..............here you go!

http://blog.ucsusa.org/rachael-nealer/gasoline-vs-electric-global-warming-emissions-953


Here is a direct quote from the article:

EVs are now driving cleaner than ever before. Driving an average EV results in lower global warming emissions than driving a gasoline car that gets 50 miles per gallon (MPG) in regions covering two-thirds of the U.S. population, up from 45 percent in our 2012 report.

GRA
Posts: 7364
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:50 pm

I think the whole 'Volt is better than the Prime' or vice versa argument is ridiculous. Each is better than the other in certain conditions, and depending on your personal needs and priorities you can chose whichever one best suits you. If your top priority is the lowest price, then the Prime is going to win. If you place a high value on driving dynamics, then the Volt will. Depending on how far your routine daily driving is and how much you value being able to drive all of that (or more) electric, either may be right for you, and so on. Fortunately, we now have a decent selection of PEVs to choose from, so the odds that you can find one that is a good match for your needs and priorities are reasonably good.

No car's perfect, and until we can each design our own car and have it 3-D printed (delivered to us overnight), perfect cars won't exist. All design decisions are a matter of compromise.

P.S. just as an indication of sales potential, here's a quote from an IEVS article about the effect of recently introduced rebates in New York state (which I also posted a link to in its own topic):
Interestingly, more than 40% of rebates were used to purchase the new Toyota Prius Prime model. The Chevrolet Bolt EV was responsible for 12%, while the Chevrolet Volt and the Ford Fusion Energi both for 10%. . . .

So, 25 mile or less AER PHEVs took 50+% of the rebates, a 53 mile AER PHEV took 10%, and what is currently the least expensive 200+ mile BEV took 12%. The remaining less than 28% were spread between 22 other car types.

P.P.S. Oh, for those who wish to argue whether running on grid-electric or gas results in fewer emissions, here's the most recent update I'm aware of: http://insideevs.com/us-ev-emissions/ As of the 2015 grid, there were still 12 states where an HEV was lower emission than a BEV. UCS has provided maps which break it down more by power provider: http://blog.ucsusa.org/rachael-nealer/gasoline-vs-electric-global-warming-emissions-953
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
Posts: 1221
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:27 pm

I agree with you, local conditions of the grid and individual use profile matter. A lot

GRA wrote:P.P.S. Oh, for those who wish to argue whether running on grid-electric or gas results in fewer emissions, here's the most recent update I'm aware of: http://insideevs.com/us-ev-emissions/ As of the 2015 grid, there were still 12 states where an HEV was lower emission than a BEV. UCS has provided maps which break it down more by power provider: http://blog.ucsusa.org/rachael-nealer/gasoline-vs-electric-global-warming-emissions-953

This is a good study, and worth reading. Not the blog, the actual study. Go to the source.

The "midsize" EV was a Nissan LEAF rated at 300 Wh/mile
The "midsize" ICE was an amalgam 29 mpg car
Since the LEAF worked out to have about 50% less CO2 emissions than the "midsize ICE", it follows that it equals a 58 mpg ICE car as a national average.

A Volt is rated at 350 Wh/mile in EV mode, so it follows that it equals a (30/35)*58 = 49 mpg car in EV mode, and ~ 41 mpg in ICE mode
In Colorado where I live, a Volt in EV mode using the grid is matched by a (30/35)*35 = 30 mpg ICE car

A Prime is rated at 250 Wh/mile in EV mode, so it follows that it equals (30/25)*58 = 70 mpg car in EV mode, and 54 mpg in ICE mode
In Colorado where I live, a Prime in EV mode using the grid is matched by a (30/25)*35 = 42 mpg ICE car

So, in the great Prime Vs Volt debate that few care about, the Volt is kicked to the curb. More importantly though is the lesson: a larger battery does not automatically imply less CO2 when comparing cars of similar size, let alone less tailpipe criteria emissions like Nox or Sox. Specifics matter. Like car efficiency.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

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