100 miles?

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Gonewild

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 28, 2010
Messages
1,262
Location
Chandler, AZ
I hear the Nissan Leaf will travel about 100 mile on the LA4 test. I drive about 38 mile to work one way on the freeway which is basically flat with no hills. Will the Leaf go to work and back at 65 mile per hour? I think once it is up to speed it would use less power then a lot of stops and starts to 45 or 50 mph. I looking forward to getting my car soon. I live in the Phoenix area and have my $99 buck in as soon as the email came in and it was processed with no problems.
 
Gonewild said:
I hear the Nissan Leaf will travel about 100 mile on the LA4 test. I drive about 38 mile to work one way on the freeway which is basically flat with no hills. Will the Leaf go to work and back at 65 mile per hour? I think once it is up to speed it would use less power then a lot of stops and starts to 45 or 50 mph. I looking forward to getting my car soon. I live in the Phoenix area and have my $99 buck in as soon as the email came in and it was processed with no problems.
Don't think you're likely to have enough range at 65mph...maybe on a good day you'll just make it, but run the AC in the summer and forget it.

Perhaps you can talk to your employer about plugging in at work. Even if it's just 110v, over the course of a day, you should have enough to assure getting home.
 
I am hoping to get my company to install some outlets outside. But I would be willing to drive 55 or 60 if I got to work and back again. I have charging station near where I work. I would not mind using a public charging station if I am out and about on my day off but I am one who like to go straight home after a long day. A stop at a public charge station every day on my way home would be a killer.
 
Gonewild said:
I hear the Nissan Leaf will travel about 100 mile on the LA4 test. I drive about 38 mile to work one way on the freeway which is basically flat with no hills. Will the Leaf go to work and back at 65 mile per hour? I think once it is up to speed it would use less power then a lot of stops and starts to 45 or 50 mph. I looking forward to getting my car soon. I live in the Phoenix area and have my $99 buck in as soon as the email came in and it was processed with no problems.


Consumption on an ev is much higher at freeway speeds over slow stop and go. I have mentioned before that the LA4 is deceptive for rating real world range. You will be pushing the limit at that speed as 70 miles is more realistic at a high DOD. You will be far better off charging at work and your pack will thank you.
 
Yep, specifically look at the speed/range chart on their blog.

display_data.php


If you assume that the Tesla's ~240mi range is the same as the Leaf's 100mi range, that gives you an idea of what speeds you can travel for how far. Just divide the range number on the chart by 240 to get some real rough approximations.

For example:

At 45mph you'd have 120mi range.
At 55mph you'd have 100mi range.
At 60mph you'd have 90mi range.
At 65mph you'd have 80 mi range.
At 70mph you'd have 75 mi range.
At 75mph you'd have 69 mi range.
At 80mph you'd have 63 mi range.

So to answer the question, yes, it seems that at 65mph you should be able to just barely make it to work and back 76 miles.

Disclaimer: Numbers above based completely on conjecture. Your mileage may vary.
 
Nice legwork Drees! I hope that people gain an real understanding of what 100 miles LA4 means, and that the marginal ones know the compromises they'll need to observe to reach and return from their destinations.

If your figures hold true, Nissan should take them and really start pounding them into people's heads, instead of saying "Oh, sure, 100 miles LA4".
 
Ofcource I should point out this is for Tesla Roadster, not Leaf.

A good way to calculate mileage wouldbe to use the wh/mile graph and use an assumption of usable 21 kwh energy in Leaf. You can get approximate range for any cycle that you want, including the newer cycle EPA uses (LA4 is the old EPA city cycle).

So @ 60mph, you need 250w/m - so you get a range of 84 miles. That is more than what I'd have guessed.

Having said that, everyone needs to assess how sustainable a lifestyle that needs 70 to 80 miles of commute a day really is. Major CO2 reductions that are needed to save the planet (no hyperbole here) do not come about without any lifestyle changes.
 
evnow said:
Ofcource I should point out this is for Tesla Roadster, not Leaf.

A good way to calculate mileage wouldbe to use the wh/mile graph and use an assumption of usable 21 kwh energy in Leaf. You can get approximate range for any cycle that you want, including the newer cycle EPA uses (LA4 is the old EPA city cycle).

So @ 60mph, you need 250w/m - so you get a range of 84 miles. That is more than what I'd have guessed.

Having said that, everyone needs to assess how sustainable a lifestyle that needs 70 to 80 miles of commute a day really is. Major CO2 reductions that are needed to save the planet (no hyperbole here) do not come about without any lifestyle changes.

I would say closer to 70 with acceptable pack temps, no headwind or grades @ 65 mph. How do you get 250 wh/mile at 70? That's assuming the car consumes 250 at all speeds which is not accurate and making these comparisons to the Tesla is not a very accurate measure at highway speeds. That is an extremely low penalty to pay at highway speeds and the Leaf does not have astonishing aerodynamics. Since the Leaf has 19.2kwh to work with, even if it only consumed 250wh per mile that would be 76.8 miles best case. Remember, the car cycles to 80% DOD and it's quite sly to state a range based on 100% DOD and lowest possible consumption cycle.
 
EVDRIVER said:
I would say closer to 70 with acceptable pack temps, no headwind or grades @ 65 mph.

Your guess is as good as mine.

How do you get 250 wh/mile at 70? That's assuming the car consumes 250 at all speeds which is not accurate and making these comparisons to the Tesla is not a very accurate measure at highway speeds.

Hmmm .. that doesn't make any sense. Obviously when I say "So @ 60mph, you need 250w/m - so you get a range of 84 miles." - it means at a constant 60mph.

That is an extremely low penalty to pay at highway speeds and the Leaf does not have astonishing aerodynamics. Since the Leaf has 19.2kwh to work with, even if it only consumed 250wh per mile that would be 76.8 miles best case. Remember, the car cycles to 80% DOD and it's quite sly to state a range based on 100% DOD and lowest possible consumption cycle.

Where did you get 19.2kwh ?
 
"Where did you get 19.2kwh ?"

I think he did %80 of 24KWh, which is 19.2KW of availble power before the Leaf is "empty"

assuming they won't allow the battery pack to discharge below %20 SOC, which of course we don't know yet, but is a fairly good assumption
 
Another look at energy use VS. speed - from the internal combustion world.

This chart is compiled from data collected by hundreds of VW diesel drivers that are part of tdiclub.com.
tdiclubchart.jpg


The first thing to point out is that it's 'upside down' compared with the Tesla watt hour per mile chart because it's a 'miles per unit of energy' chart instead of a 'unit of energy per mile' chart. Notice that the highest fuel economy for a range of different models (Jetta, Golf, Beetle, Passat have different colors) happens at 35mph?

While the absolute fuel economy - energy per mile - changes from a bit over 60 to 90 miles per gallon, the speed for highest economy (lowest energy use) happens at the same speed - regardless of vehicle size, drag, or weight (again - within this group of diesel powered VWs).

When an EV manufacturer says a car gets best range at 35 they're simply reflecting the laws of physics, not necessarily a misguided marketing department. It's common for electric scooter manufacturers, for example, to give a 'max range' number, and a 'max speed' number. The max range will happen at about 35 mph - and unless one has a downhill commute both ways :) they'll not get that same range at 55mph.

Just like with a gas car - if you need to get another 10 miles out of the 'tank' to make that fuel station, turn off the AC, slow down, and crank-up your hypermiling skillz. :D

Andy
 
AndyH said:
Another look at energy use VS. speed - from the internal combustion world.

This chart is compiled from data collected by hundreds of VW diesel drivers that are part of tdiclub.com.
tdiclubchart.jpg


The first thing to point out is that it's 'upside down' compared with the Tesla watt hour per mile chart because it's a 'miles per unit of energy' chart instead of a 'unit of energy per mile' chart. Notice that the highest fuel economy for a range of different models (Jetta, Golf, Beetle, Passat have different colors) happens at 35mph?

While the absolute fuel economy - energy per mile - changes from a bit over 60 to 90 miles per gallon, the speed for highest economy (lowest energy use) happens at the same speed - regardless of vehicle size, drag, or weight.

When an EV manufacturer says a car gets best range at 35 they're simply reflecting the laws of physics, not necessarily a misguided marketing department. It's common for electric scooter manufacturers, for example, to give a 'max range' number, and a 'max speed' number. The max range will happen at about 35 mph - and unless one has a downhill commute both ways :) they'll not get that same range at 55mph.

Just like with a gas car - if you need to get another 10 miles out of the 'tank' to make that fuel station, turn off the AC, slow down, and crank-up your hypermiling skillz. :D

Andy


There will be a standard at some point for relative comparison or every MFG would use statistics that benefit their vehicle range not real driving under a unified scale. If ICE MFG could use this rational it would be impossible to calculate MPG against various vehicles. Once the EV standard is in place on a sticker there will be big differences between what was stated and what will be a standard. This is about marketing, does anyone think that if Nissan does not have a standard they are REQUIRED to use that they will chose a method that gives them a lower number? No. I'm sure we will see all this change in the future.
 
EVDRIVER said:
I would say closer to 70 with acceptable pack temps, no headwind or grades @ 65 mph. How do you get 250 wh/mile at 70? That's assuming the car consumes 250 at all speeds which is not accurate and making these comparisons to the Tesla is not a very accurate measure at highway speeds. That is an extremely low penalty to pay at highway speeds and the Leaf does not have astonishing aerodynamics. Since the Leaf has 19.2kwh to work with, even if it only consumed 250wh per mile that would be 76.8 miles best case. Remember, the car cycles to 80% DOD and it's quite sly to state a range based on 100% DOD and lowest possible consumption cycle.

I suspect we don't have to take another 20% off the Leaf pack size for our range guestimates. I say this because we aren't told how many gallons of fuel our fuel tank actually holds but how much is usable. Same for cell phone and laptop batteries - the battery might be capable of 4 1/2 hours of use but the management system is programmed to only allow 4 hours of talk time.

Nissan says in their literature that the battery holds 24KWh. Reports from Leaf tour attendees suggest that Nissan is only allowing us to use the pack from 90% state of charge to 10% state of charge - they're already derating the pack to 80%. This means that the 100% we see on our fuel gauges is only 80% of what the battery can provide.

The battery is LiMn - which is fully charged at about 4.1V. The battery manufacturer lists 14.4V for a 4-cell module - only 3.6V per cell. That confirms for me that the manufacturer is already understating cell capacity - which seems to reinforce that we are likely to have all 24KWh available for our use.

If we can keep our consumption at 240wh/m, 100 mile range should be achievable.

Lithium cells perform better when hot - so we're likely to have longer range from a full pack in the summer.
Capacity drops when cold. If the pack isn't heated, rang will drop in the winter (unless the pack is over sized a bit to give us all-season performance)
Capacity will drop as the battery ages. Minimum range can be maintained for a longer time by oversizing the pack.
Energy use will go up in the winter because cold air is more dense - more aerodynamic drag.
All the other effects of wind, driving style, passenger/cargo weight, terrain, and tire inflation apply as well.

Andy
 
EVDRIVER said:
There will be a standard at some point for relative comparison or every MFG would use statistics that benefit their vehicle range not real driving under a unified scale. If ICE MFG could use this rational it would be impossible to calculate MPG against various vehicles. Once the EV standard is in place on a sticker there will be big differences between what was stated and what will be a standard. This is about marketing, does anyone think that if Nissan does not have a standard they are REQUIRED to use that they will chose a method that gives them a lower number? No. I'm sure we will see all this change in the future.

That is exactly why the LA4 and other STANDARD test cycles exist!

What are we really saying when we bash use of LA4? Do we WANT Nissan to join the 'Chinese scooter' crowd and report 'max range' (at an unknown speed with an unknown driver weight, unknown air density, unknown tire pressure, etc.) or do we want to know a number that can be directly compared against another vehicle?

Another example of this is the standard fuel mileage numbers on stickers for ICE vehicles. We all know that we can get very different numbers on the road depending on how we drive. But that STANDARD was created so that consumers can make a direct comparison without having to slog thru marketing BS.

Andy
 
evnow said:
Having said that, everyone needs to assess how sustainable a lifestyle that needs 70 to 80 miles of commute a day really is. Major CO2 reductions that are needed to save the planet (no hyperbole here) do not come about without any lifestyle changes.

But the change I'd rather make, over giving up my "relatively easy and very well compensated job with a long commute", would be to go EV and recharge with solar.

Edit: Oh, I suppose moving house, closer to work, would be the next best thing. Except that work is in a crappy neighborhood.
 
I think the point was not that Nissan did not use SOME standard (LA4), but that they could choose ANY test that was convenient for their purposes from the several available "standards" (LA92, etc.).

At least, they told us which standard test they used.
 
I did some Googling and couldn't find any definitive information supporting the 80% DoD assumption.

Edit: I missed AndyH's comments, which make sense - thanks.
 
evnow said:
Major CO2 reductions that are needed to save the planet (no hyperbole here) do not come about without any lifestyle changes.

CO2, schmee-O2, people aren't interested in making lifestyle changes to save the planet. Only solutions that enhance our lifestyles need apply.
 
From a first drive review on Edmunds 'Inside Line' web site "Moreover, the Leaf will top 90 mph, but it won't travel 100 miles at that sort of speed — 60 miles is more like it, we're told.". So assuming that feedback came from Nissan, I would think that some of the numbers posted here are not all that far off the mark.
 
Back
Top