iPlug
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Fri May 25, 2018 10:00 am

A few observations:

-partisanship is counterproductive; Tesla haters and fanboys get the most visibility and the moderate middle ground wants to stay out of the fray; say something critical about Tesla and the fanboys come out and attack moderates as haters; say something complimentary about Tesla and the haters come out and attack them as fanboys; the haters see a world of mostly fanboys and the fanboys see a world of mostly haters
-despite sometimes presenting factually accurate information, it’s hard to defend a partisan; one particular hater may post next to nothing positive about Tesla, so it’s hard to see this as anything but political theater; yes, there is at least one of these characters on these boards

-this is not a Tesla Model 3 thread, to that point, it is labeled “2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA”, it is categorically a Leaf and Model 3 thread, so current, former, and prospective Leaf and prospective $35k MSRP version Model 3 drivers should be most welcome
-this is a Leaf forum, so we should expect those who have owned/leased or are considering the Leaf to be overwhelmingly the primary visitors to this forum; those outside this should be a small exception
-constructive discussions should be encouraged


My situation:

-I personally think Elon Musk is a genius and his ventures are impressive and innovative and he is in rare company; but he is not infallible and like all great people, he is not immune to error nor should be shielded from criticism; it should be ok to point these out and discuss them, but not ok to be a blind hater or zealot who has little tolerance for constructive praise or criticism
-the here-to-date non-existent $35k MSRP Tesla is a great vehicle; it is not and will not be close in real price to the more affordable base Leaf; but that’s ok, we should expect to pay more for a better vehicle that has better specs in most areas not the least of which includes a battery management system that avoids the battery woes of the Leaf
2016 Leaf SV (leased) + 2012 Plug-in Prius (own), 11.43 kW Solar PV (16 MWh/yr actual production), Clipper Creek Level-2 7.7 kW charging stations x2, 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater

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IssacZachary
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Posts: 806
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:57 am
Delivery Date: 15 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 420789
Location: Gunnison, CO, USA

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Fri May 25, 2018 10:50 am

iPlug wrote:-partisanship is counterproductive; Tesla haters and fanboys get the most visibility and the moderate middle ground wants to stay out of the fray; say something critical about Tesla and the fanboys come out and attack moderates as haters; say something complimentary about Tesla and the haters come out and attack them as fanboys; the haters see a world of mostly fanboys and the fanboys see a world of mostly haters.

Exactly! I feel I'm neutral. But if I mention just one thing good or bad about either, even if it's an obvious well researched fact, I get bombarded about how such a fanboy I am about one car and how much of a hater I am of the other car.

For me personally, I like my Leaf. But I feel my Leaf isn't quite the right car for me anymore. This isn't entirely the car's fault since where I need to drive has changed since I bought the Leaf, and where I need to go now is a bit too far for the Leaf. I'm at 11 bars, so I could get a new 12 bar battery and be fine with range, for a while at least. But it seems that a new battery costs $8,500, and after trying to sell my Leaf, I found I can't get anymore than $4,500 for the car. And expecting a new Leaf battery to last at 12 bars is unrealistic anyway. So the car has me in a pickle. Sell it? Keep it? I just don't know what to do. I love my Leaf but I hardly drive it. But there's a chance that I might make a move to where my daily drives are shorter. But if I do that I might be living in a much hotter area. My Leaf kind of seems like a lose lose situation for me right now.

Will I get a Tesla? Probably not for a long time. When I can get a used Tesla in five years from now for $10,000, I might. But will I get a newer Leaf instead of a Tesla? Well all that depends on how well the batteries last and how good the charging infrastructure is by then. I don't want to make the same mistake twice.

For the present I'm going back to an ICEV. For now, that means driving my 1985 VW diesel since the cost of buying the Leaf has left me with no money to buy something better. And I don't feel like taking out a loan right now either. I'd rather just save the money I save with the 55mpg diesel and make an educated decision later. By then hopefully there will be better choices and I'll have better information about which cars have which problems and which ones best fit my needs.
2013 SL 50,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
The Nissan Leaf is the fourth best long distance car for highway driving. >>Best Long Distance Cars<<

edatoakrun
Posts: 5198
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Fri May 25, 2018 11:29 am

iPlug wrote:A few observations:

...the here-to-date non-existent $35k MSRP Tesla is a great vehicle...

Maybe you should base your conclusions on reality, by waiting until that car exists, before you form an opinion?

I prefer to form my opinions on evidence, rather than the opinions of the ignorant.

To wit:

iPlug wrote:...it is not and will not be close in real price to the more affordable base Leaf; but that’s ok, we should expect to pay more for a better vehicle that has better specs in most areas not the least of which includes a battery management system that avoids the battery woes of the Leaf

I live in a fairly warm climate, very similar to yours.

My 2011 LEAF retains slightly above 18 kWh total capacity, as indicated by grid charge accepted, and range available, so it is likely to have lost between five and six kWh of capacity since delivery, after over seven years and over 60,000 miles driven.

See my comments on this thread for more details, including a recent trip where i drove around your neighborhood:

Seven year report, 2011 LEAF
viewtopic.php?p=526669#p526669

edatoakrun wrote:Got Home from a ~761 (corrected) mile trip to San Francisco and lake Tahoe Saturday, driving my ~60k mile, ~7 year old (see post #1) LEAF.

I've been waiting to drive my LEAF on this trip since delivery day, and:

...The good news is that finally having a few fairly reliable charge sites both locally and on routes south, I can make most extended trips far more quickly and easily now with a seven-year-old pack, than I could when my LEAF was new...

A replacement for my factory pack would have been very handy for the first and last ~200 miles, but once I was on the 1-80 and I-50 corridors (where there is now probably about one DC charger installed per each 1,000 gas pumps!) my LEAF's ~20% range reduction from delivery doesn't matter too much.

Disappointingly, entering the eighth nearly-as-hot-as-hell North Valley Summer, my LEAF still hasn't lost its ninth capacity bar, displaying (erroneously) 42.09 AH (63.53%) when I left, and 42.80 AH (64.60%) on return.

RE thermal management on this trip, my main problem was keeping the pack temperature high enough to maximize capacity...

When the first Tesla covers ~the same miles, over ~the same amount of time, and shows less measured kWh loss from the pack, please post the details.

Meanwhile, I'm happy that the possibility of my TSLA battery pack pack cremating me after a survivable accident, is just one less thing I don't need to worry about...
no condition is permanent

iPlug
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Fri May 25, 2018 12:35 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
iPlug wrote:A few observations:

...the here-to-date non-existent $35k MSRP Tesla is a great vehicle...

Maybe you should base your conclusions on reality, by waiting until that car exists, before you form an opinion?

I prefer to form my opinions on evidence, rather than the opinions of the ignorant.

I'm confused. As you just referenced, I stated the $35k MSRP Tesla does not exist. Why can we not discuss a version of a vehicle that is not yet mass produced but most reasonable people think will be at some point, even if substantially further into the future than many claimed? The 60 kWh Leaf is probably at least a few months away too, but why not talk about it now.

Sure you can't buy it yet, but if you are in the market for a new vehicle in April next year like we are, the 60 kWh Leaf and $35k MSRP Model 3 are important future contenders to ponder now.

Maybe as a kind gesture to the Tesla faithful, you could briefly cross the aisle and say a couple genuinely nice things about the company. There are more than a few. Seems like there is a loss of sense of good will and constructive discussion.
2016 Leaf SV (leased) + 2012 Plug-in Prius (own), 11.43 kW Solar PV (16 MWh/yr actual production), Clipper Creek Level-2 7.7 kW charging stations x2, 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater

edatoakrun
Posts: 5198
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
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Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Fri May 25, 2018 1:38 pm

iPlug wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:
iPlug wrote:A few observations:

...the here-to-date non-existent $35k MSRP Tesla is a great vehicle...

Maybe you should base your conclusions on reality, by waiting until that car exists, before you form an opinion?

I prefer to form my opinions on evidence, rather than the opinions of the ignorant.

I'm confused. As you just referenced, I stated the $35k MSRP Tesla does not exist. Why can we not discuss a version of a vehicle that is not yet mass produced but most reasonable people think will be at some point, even if substantially further into the future than many claimed? The 60 kWh Leaf is probably at least a few months away too, but why not talk about it now.

Sure you can't buy it yet, but if you are in the market for a new vehicle in April next year like we are, the 60 kWh Leaf and $35k MSRP Model 3 are important future contenders to ponder now...

And a thread conjecturing on how the the future "$35k MSRP 60 kWh" LEAF will compare to the "$35k MSRP SR Model 3" might be interesting.

But using the present tense when describing and reaching conclusions on a vehicle that not only does not exist, but does not even have the specifications released yet, seems premature, to say the least.

iPlug wrote:...Maybe as a kind gesture to the Tesla faithful, you could briefly cross the aisle and say a couple genuinely nice things about the company. There are more than a few. Seems like there is a loss of sense of good will and constructive discussion.

First, I'd point out that I do not post on Tesla forums, since even though my statements would be equally valid there, it would be bad manners to do so.

Even if your kids were unambiguously ugly, I wouldn't bring up that subject when invited into your home for Thanksgiving dinner...

Many TSLA fans don't seem to understand the simple concept of civility when they feel the urge to post on MNL, and almost invariably compound that offensive behavior by resorting to personal attacks, after their own words reveal them to be not only rude, but foolish as well (see previous thread page).

Second, since it is apparent that TSLA has made great efforts to promote itself, relying on both stooges (paid) and dupes (unpaid) agents as sycophants in various media, including this forum, it hardly seems necessary for me to add to the mountain of pro-TSLA bullshit that has been generated.

Finally, I really can't say much positive about the company, TSLA because over many years, I have watched it fail to achieve its stated goals, and instead devolve into what currently is (IMO) a scam, of its pathetic creditors, equity holders, and car buyers.

I actually hope that your opinion of TSLA turns out to be more accurate than mine, in the same sense that I hope (and pray fervently) that the Fox News view of Donald Trump's character and competence turns out to be more accurate than my own.

But that hope does not change the presently observable facts.
no condition is permanent

Jerryr
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 8:18 am
Delivery Date: 14 May 2018
Leaf Number: 307113

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Fri May 25, 2018 10:36 pm

My reservation number came up for a Model 3 last month. I opted to wait until the base model comes out

In the mean time, last week I traded in our 2015 Leaf SL for a 2018 Leaf SV w/tech and all weather package. Now I have over double the range and love the new tech stuff like, blind spot monitoring, ICC, e-Pedal and more aggressive B-mode.

I bought my 15 about 3 years ago. MSRP was $37k dealer discount was $5k, Nissan cash was $5k and tax credit was $7.5k. So when all was said and done the net cost was about $20k plus taxes.

They gave me $13k for my 15 Leaf on trade for the 18 Leaf, so 3 year depreciation cost me $7k. Not really bad for 3 years.

My 2018 SL stickered for $36k. Dealer discount and NMAC finance incentive brought cost to $30k. Tax credt of $7.5k will bring net before taxes to $22.5k before taxes. I just sent a payoff check to NMAC to pay off the week old loan.

I could have waited for the ‘19 Leafs with 60 ah battery to come out or wait until my M3 Base to be available. At my age I don’t know if I’ll be alive next year.

If tax credits are still applicable and available after next January I expect to trade my Lexus RX450h in on a Tesla Model 3.
.

The Leaf is and has been a great car for grocery runs, Doctor visits, picking up grandson from school etc. And on top of this I don’t feel guilty driving the Leaf at 2 cents per mile. I wouldn’t want to do this with a Tesla or Lexus. They’re too nice of a car. Heck, the 13 quarts of oil in my 2017 F350 costs 2 cents/miles just for oil/filter changes. Then there’s diesel fuel and DEF fluid to factor.

Btw, this 2018 Leaf is my 56th new car/truck purchases since 1970 and my 8th new car purchase since 2014. That also doesn’t count 2 new RVs and a couple of Kawasaki Mule Pro FXT LEs last 2 years. Life is too short.

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jlv
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Leaf Number: 424487
Location: Massachusetts

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Sat May 26, 2018 7:02 pm

Jerryr wrote:If tax credits are still applicable and available after next January I expect to trade my Lexus RX450h in on a Tesla Model 3

Odds are good that Tesla will defer the 200,000th delivery to July, so the federal tax credit for buying a Tesla should renain $7500 until the end of this year and be $3750 for the first half of 2019.
'13 SL+Prem (mfg 12/13, leased 4/14, bought 5/17) 31K miTesla S 75D (3/17) 20K mi
Model 3 reservation (invited to order 1/18)

SageBrush
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Sat May 26, 2018 7:31 pm

jlv wrote:
Jerryr wrote:If tax credits are still applicable and available after next January I expect to trade my Lexus RX450h in on a Tesla Model 3

Odds are good that Tesla will defer the 200,000th delivery to July, so the federal tax credit for buying a Tesla should renain $7500 until the end of this year and be $3750 for the first half of 2019.

IIRC the federal tax credit drops to zero after 12-15 months:

100% the quarter in which the 200k sale is reached;
100% the following quarter;
50% the following two quarters;
25% the following two quarters.

So presuming 200k sale in July,
100% through 2018
50% for H1 2019
25% for H2 2019

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/plug-in- ... nd-irc-30d
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles

sigurdk
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:21 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 322824

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Sun May 27, 2018 10:23 am

$35k Leaf vs $35k Model 3:
Hatch: Leaf: 1, Model 3: 0
Game over.
'15 LEAF S 6.6Kw
VIN: 322824
San Diego Coastal

iPlug
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Sun May 27, 2018 10:30 am

Agree, the hatch is a major plus. For us that is one of the key things keeping the Model 3 on the fence. With our Plug-in Prius and gen-1 Leaf the utility of the hatch was quickly established.

That said, in person, the trunk of the Model 3 is actually quite spacious. As long as one of our two vehicles remains a hatch, we may pick the Model 3 to be one of our household vehicles.
2016 Leaf SV (leased) + 2012 Plug-in Prius (own), 11.43 kW Solar PV (16 MWh/yr actual production), Clipper Creek Level-2 7.7 kW charging stations x2, 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater

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