danrjones
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2019
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: What's new for 2020?

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:53 pm

powersurge wrote:I can't see a need for them to increase the battery pack size for quite some time....

Heck, even Tesla is not increasing battery sizes...

NOW, the direction is for the prices of the 60 KWH cars to drop, and for them to make a different car body which is more in the SUV or MINIVAN direction.....


I guess it depend on where you live. The 40 pack size is good enough for my daily driving / work. But if I want to go do anything on the weekend, like I did this last weekend, I had to take our outback. I'm OK with that for now but eventually I'd like to be able to take my EV on longer trips. Last weekend's trip was to go hiking, about 90 miles each way, plus about 8000 feet of gain. No chargers anywhere. So I figure I'd need about 300 miles of range to do that in an EV. That would be sweet - when its affordable.

Even the Plus wouldn't have been able to do that trip. Someday though.

But I agree that 2020 won't see more range since the plus just arrived, but I would expect some upgrades on the inside. 12" Screen? Bigger screen's seem to be all the rage right now.
2018 Leaf SV Pearl White with Tech and All Weather, Purchased New on 5/3/19

powersurge
Posts: 1312
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Location: Long Island, NY

Re: What's new for 2020?

Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:44 am

danrjones wrote:
powersurge wrote:I can't see a need for them to increase the battery pack size for quite some time....

Heck, even Tesla is not increasing battery sizes...

NOW, the direction is for the prices of the 60 KWH cars to drop, and for them to make a different car body which is more in the SUV or MINIVAN direction.....


I guess it depend on where you live. The 40 pack size is good enough for my daily driving / work. But if I want to go do anything on the weekend, like I did this last weekend, I had to take our outback. I'm OK with that for now but eventually I'd like to be able to take my EV on longer trips. Last weekend's trip was to go hiking, about 90 miles each way, plus about 8000 feet of gain. No chargers anywhere. So I figure I'd need about 300 miles of range to do that in an EV. That would be sweet - when its affordable.

Even the Plus wouldn't have been able to do that trip. Someday though.

But I agree that 2020 won't see more range since the plus just arrived, but I would expect some upgrades on the inside. 12" Screen? Bigger screen's seem to be all the rage right now.


Well, you are expecting to put an insane amount of expectations of mileage on an electric car... If that is your "must have", then you are either not an EV customer, or should have a gas powered vehicle.

You cannot expect to PAY FOR ($$$$$), and CARRY AROUND a massive amount of battery power just for your occasional need....

danrjones
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2019
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: What's new for 2020?

Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:18 am

That's why I didnt. Because you are right, range costs money. It serves me fine for now in town but if they add 20 miles every few years it'll get there to where I can use an EV for more.

I expect they will have to add range to stay competitive over time anyway.
2018 Leaf SV Pearl White with Tech and All Weather, Purchased New on 5/3/19

Titanium48
Posts: 52
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Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: What's new for 2020?

Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:53 am

I agree that price drops are what is needed most. 60 kWh is more than enough for pretty much anybody's commuting needs, but still significantly short of what many would like for road trips. A 30 kWh car at a significantly lower price point would sell, but there are diminishing returns in increasing battery capacity further.

johnlocke
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Re: What's new for 2020?

Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:49 pm

Back in the day (60's and 70's) , cars had 20 gal fuel tanks and got 12-14 MPG. That gives a 240 mile range. Cars like a Pinto or Vega had 12 gal fuel tanks and got 20 MPG. Again a 240 mi range. It wasn't until the mid 70's and the fuel shortages that manufacturers started putting in larger gas tanks so you wouldn't have to fill up as often. Hardly anyone drives more than 3-4 hrs. at a time. Most people need a break after 3 hrs of driving (or sooner if you're chugging that Big Gulp). 300 miles is the upper limit of what most people need and the bottom end is something over 200 miles for convenience. Since you can charge at home every night and don't need to look for a gas station on the way, something around 150 miles is actually more than sufficient. The only real problem with shorter range cars is going to be battery degradation due to more frequent charging. If you solve that and enable really Fast Charging ( say 5-10 min to 90%) then range is a non-issue. If you can do either shallow discharge or 2-3 days between charging sessions batteries would last a lot longer even in their current form. That's why the trend is toward bigger batteries and longer ranges. Elon Musk has given a range of 1000-1500 full discharge cycles as the lifetime of a battery in normal use. For a 60 KWH battery, that's 200,000-300,000 miles of operation. Even a 30 KWH Nissan battery in a cool climate (Say Ireland) could do 90,000-130,000 miles. A bigger battery isn't necessary for more range but rather to reduce the frequency of charge cycles or to encourage shallower charge and discharge events.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Re: What's new for 2020?

Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:55 pm

Back in the day (60's and 70's) , cars had 20 gal fuel tanks and got 12-14 MPG. That gives a 240 mile range. Cars like a Pinto or Vega had 12 gal fuel tanks and got 20 MPG. Again a 240 mi range. It wasn't until the mid 70's and the fuel shortages that manufacturers started putting in larger gas tanks so you wouldn't have to fill up as often.


You need to qualify the above with "American." There were plenty of European and Asian cars in the Sixties that approached and even reached 30MPG. Most had 10 gallon tanks, giving a range of up to 300 miles.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

danrjones
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2019
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: What's new for 2020?

Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:19 am

johnlocke wrote:Back in the day (60's and 70's) , cars had 20 gal fuel tanks and got 12-14 MPG. That gives a 240 mile range. Cars like a Pinto or Vega had 12 gal fuel tanks and got 20 MPG. Again a 240 mi range. It wasn't until the mid 70's and the fuel shortages that manufacturers started putting in larger gas tanks so you wouldn't have to fill up as often. Hardly anyone drives more than 3-4 hrs. at a time. Most people need a break after 3 hrs of driving (or sooner if you're chugging that Big Gulp). 300 miles is the upper limit of what most people need and the bottom end is something over 200 miles for convenience. Since you can charge at home every night and don't need to look for a gas station on the way, something around 150 miles is actually more than sufficient. The only real problem with shorter range cars is going to be battery degradation due to more frequent charging. If you solve that and enable really Fast Charging ( say 5-10 min to 90%) then range is a non-issue. If you can do either shallow discharge or 2-3 days between charging sessions batteries would last a lot longer even in their current form. That's why the trend is toward bigger batteries and longer ranges. Elon Musk has given a range of 1000-1500 full discharge cycles as the lifetime of a battery in normal use. For a 60 KWH battery, that's 200,000-300,000 miles of operation. Even a 30 KWH Nissan battery in a cool climate (Say Ireland) could do 90,000-130,000 miles. A bigger battery isn't necessary for more range but rather to reduce the frequency of charge cycles or to encourage shallower charge and discharge events.


It depends on where you live and if you plan to still have a traditional gasoline or gasoline hybrid.

Rivian is targeting 400 miles for a reason - if you are going up in our mountains , you need both the miles and the elevation. Someday there may be fast charging stations in the national parks - but at every forest service trail-head and campground? Probably not.

So the solution is either having two vehicles, having one that takes gas for those trips, or having a lot more range in one of your EV's

In other countries or parts of this country, 150 can do everything. Here it can't. Heck the nearest town is almost 90 miles away.


Now the nice thing is that most families have at least two cars, so replacing one of them with a 150mi EV is a no-brainier. :D
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powersurge
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Re: What's new for 2020?

Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:14 am

danrjones wrote:
johnlocke wrote:Back in the day (60's and 70's) , cars had 20 gal fuel tanks and got 12-14 MPG. That gives a 240 mile range. Cars like a Pinto or Vega had 12 gal fuel tanks and got 20 MPG. Again a 240 mi range. It wasn't until the mid 70's and the fuel shortages that manufacturers started putting in larger gas tanks so you wouldn't have to fill up as often. Hardly anyone drives more than 3-4 hrs. at a time. Most people need a break after 3 hrs of driving (or sooner if you're chugging that Big Gulp). 300 miles is the upper limit of what most people need and the bottom end is something over 200 miles for convenience. Since you can charge at home every night and don't need to look for a gas station on the way, something around 150 miles is actually more than sufficient. The only real problem with shorter range cars is going to be battery degradation due to more frequent charging. If you solve that and enable really Fast Charging ( say 5-10 min to 90%) then range is a non-issue. If you can do either shallow discharge or 2-3 days between charging sessions batteries would last a lot longer even in their current form. That's why the trend is toward bigger batteries and longer ranges. Elon Musk has given a range of 1000-1500 full discharge cycles as the lifetime of a battery in normal use. For a 60 KWH battery, that's 200,000-300,000 miles of operation. Even a 30 KWH Nissan battery in a cool climate (Say Ireland) could do 90,000-130,000 miles. A bigger battery isn't necessary for more range but rather to reduce the frequency of charge cycles or to encourage shallower charge and discharge events.


It depends on where you live and if you plan to still have a traditional gasoline or gasoline hybrid.

Rivian is targeting 400 miles for a reason - if you are going up in our mountains , you need both the miles and the elevation. Someday there may be fast charging stations in the national parks - but at every forest service trail-head and campground? Probably not.

So the solution is either having two vehicles, having one that takes gas for those trips, or having a lot more range in one of your EV's

In other countries or parts of this country, 150 can do everything. Here it can't. Heck the nearest town is almost 90 miles away.


Now the nice thing is that most families have at least two cars, so replacing one of them with a 150mi EV is a no-brainier. :D


Again, I really need to say... I think that you are a new Leaf driver, and your expectations are really too high. Just because you may have some specific need, it does not mean that technology needs to deliver...

I suggest you highly appreciate the value of the technical marvel of an electric car that can go 150-220 mile on a battery charge... Never in history have we been able to make a machine that can do that.

Anyone who is dissatisfied with an EV because they cannot to tour mountain ranges through National Forrest wilderness need to readjust their expectations.

danrjones
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2019
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: What's new for 2020?

Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:04 pm

I think you are mistaking future expectations for current dissatisfaction.
The leaf I bought does everything I wanted and expected it to do, for now.

But I thought this thread was geared toward future expectations.
I fully expect future leafs, as some point, to do even more.

I don't think its unfair to expect even better things in the future.
In fact I'd say it would be wacky to expect them NOT to do better things.
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johnlocke
Posts: 347
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: What's new for 2020?

Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:47 pm

danrjones wrote:
johnlocke wrote:Back in the day (60's and 70's) , cars had 20 gal fuel tanks and got 12-14 MPG. That gives a 240 mile range. Cars like a Pinto or Vega had 12 gal fuel tanks and got 20 MPG. Again a 240 mi range. It wasn't until the mid 70's and the fuel shortages that manufacturers started putting in larger gas tanks so you wouldn't have to fill up as often. Hardly anyone drives more than 3-4 hrs. at a time. Most people need a break after 3 hrs of driving (or sooner if you're chugging that Big Gulp). 300 miles is the upper limit of what most people need and the bottom end is something over 200 miles for convenience. Since you can charge at home every night and don't need to look for a gas station on the way, something around 150 miles is actually more than sufficient. The only real problem with shorter range cars is going to be battery degradation due to more frequent charging. If you solve that and enable really Fast Charging ( say 5-10 min to 90%) then range is a non-issue. If you can do either shallow discharge or 2-3 days between charging sessions batteries would last a lot longer even in their current form. That's why the trend is toward bigger batteries and longer ranges. Elon Musk has given a range of 1000-1500 full discharge cycles as the lifetime of a battery in normal use. For a 60 KWH battery, that's 200,000-300,000 miles of operation. Even a 30 KWH Nissan battery in a cool climate (Say Ireland) could do 90,000-130,000 miles. A bigger battery isn't necessary for more range but rather to reduce the frequency of charge cycles or to encourage shallower charge and discharge events.


It depends on where you live and if you plan to still have a traditional gasoline or gasoline hybrid.

Rivian is targeting 400 miles for a reason - if you are going up in our mountains , you need both the miles and the elevation. Someday there may be fast charging stations in the national parks - but at every forest service trail-head and campground? Probably not.

So the solution is either having two vehicles, having one that takes gas for those trips, or having a lot more range in one of your EV's

In other countries or parts of this country, 150 can do everything. Here it can't. Heck the nearest town is almost 90 miles away.


Now the nice thing is that most families have at least two cars, so replacing one of them with a 150mi EV is a no-brainier. :D

There aren't any gas stations there either. If you were planning on going to a location like that, you might consider bringing a generator for emergencies. Or you could limp down to the general store or ranger station for an emergency boost. Just like you would bring a couple of jerry cans full of gas for emergencies.

Rivian is targeting 400 miles for towing capacity. Add a 5000 lb horse trailer to any truck and watch the mileage drop. Or add a toy hauler or an rv trailer for similar results. No one vehicle is going to be right for everyone. I drive a leaf daily but I've got a Tundra to pull that horse trailer, haul lumber home from Home Depot. or haul 10 bales of hay from the feed store.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

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