jonathanfields4ever
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:55 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Feb 2018
Location: Kyoto

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:29 am

SageBrush wrote:SNIPPED


OK, I appreciate that. I too apologize for getting heated.


Yeah, the charging infrastructure is huge for sure. That's going to be Tesla's leg up when the big manufacturers finally decide to put their weight behind EVs. It's something the people who like to predict doom and gloom for Tesla forget or try to ignore. I got to speak with a Nissan higher up who happened to be in Mie Prefecture when I was, and he said "we're fighting for our lives with Tesla abroad."

I wanted a Model 3 badly, but it's just not feasible over here. They don't even begin production on right-hand drive models until 2019 and I need a car absolutely right now. My wife wanted me to get a Honda Fit hybrid or Note series hybrid and hold out until the Model 3 finally comes, but I'm just ready to be done with gas and Nissan's charging network over here (7,000+ ChaDemo points at 50kW with unlimited use for ~$20 a month) sold it for me. As far as I know there are just 6 Superchargers in all of Japan, one of which has reportedly been closed for months. The only other options were a BMW i3 for $50K or a Mitsubishi iMiev for $24K, which is just a sick joke.

If I still lived in Colorado, I would have picked the Model 3 without a second thought, but the one thing I wanted to consider in this thread was the Leaf's place as an everyman's EV in the US. The original Leaf was basically the Prius of EVs. Now that the Model 3 is out and within reach of a lot of people, I wonder how it will fare. If SVs start to appear for $30K, $29K, $28K out the door or with attractive leases, I think it will prove an interesting alternative for many buyers.

SageBrush
Posts: 2201
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:36 am

7000 ChaDemo is awesome. In my corner of SW Colorado there is no CCS or ChaDemo within a 200 mile radius while Superchargers let me go in 3 directions easily and in the last direction with some annoyance that Tesla plans to improve this year.

I know Europe with its moderate climate has a much more favorable view of the LEAF battery than stateside. What is the climate like in Japan, and what is the translated tenor of Japanese owners about the battery ? I gather that the Japanese tendency to not have older cars on the road might color perceptions. True ?
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles

jonathanfields4ever
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:55 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Feb 2018
Location: Kyoto

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:14 am

SageBrush wrote:7000 ChaDemo is awesome. In my corner of SW Colorado there is no CCS or ChaDemo within a 200 mile radius while Superchargers let me go in 3 directions easily and in the last direction with some annoyance that Tesla plans to improve this year.

I know Europe with its moderate climate has a much more favorable view of the LEAF battery than stateside. What is the climate like in Japan, and what is the translated tenor of Japanese owners about the battery ? I gather that the Japanese tendency to not have older cars on the road might color perceptions. True ?


It gets really hot here in the summer, so I’m a bit worried. Like 40 degrees C. I’m not concerned about range in the slightest, but diminished regen could be a problem. Apparently Nissan’s software restricts regenereative braking beyond what’s necessary as the battery ages. I suppose that’s another knock against the Leaf...

I haven’t been able to find much online about the issue. I found a forum where one guy said Nissan screwed him on a battery that hit 8 segments too quick. That’s a bit scary. But I’m hoping an overall lack of news is good news. One website said a leaf battery will lose 10% over 5 years in climates that average 24C or below and 30% in climates that average 37C or more in 5 years, but I don’t know where they got those numbers.

I did find one thread where users were talking about how great Tesla batteries were and suggested that Nissan was purposely sticking with different chemistry because they were worried about killing the 5-year car replacement cycle golden goose. Two guys in the thread had Model 3 reservations, but the overall tenor was that the 2018 Leaf was exciting.


Driving culture here is a big factor as you suggest. People are generally put off by older vehicles and it gets harder to keep them on the road as they age. In year 3, 5, 7, 9, etc. you have a mandatory inspection called “shaken” that can cost anywhere from several hundred to a few thousand dollars. A lot of older cars are totaled in the process because you have to make the repairs they request or you lose your registration and have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get it back. Stubborn individuals who still want to maintain and hold onto a car have their auto tax raised after year 10. The official reason is that they’re trying to constantly get newer, more environmentally friendly cars out there, but everyone says it’s to keep people buying from domestic manufacturers on a regular basis.

SageBrush
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Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:23 am

Very interesting and informative -- thanks.
I realized that my question was poorly worded when I asked about "translated tenor." The Japanese I have met are circumspect and unlikely to outright criticize someone, let alone rant. So I was asking you to calibrate their opinions to an American scale.

It is interesting to speculate whether Nissan engineered the battery with a local culture in mind that does not expect the battery to last past ~ 8 years and driving distances are shorter. Probably not since Nissan clearly intended to sell the car world-wide but I've always wondered at the confidence Nissan engineers have displayed over the years in their battery technology. Clearly they are competent and I doubt they are liars, so the degradation in warm+ climates was unexpected.

Or so it seems.

Unsolicited advice: avoid leaving your battery fully charged. That goes 10x if the battery is over ~ 5 bars temperature.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles

jonathanfields4ever
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:55 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Feb 2018
Location: Kyoto

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:51 pm

SageBrush wrote:SNIPPED


Ah, I see what you mean. I couldn’t find much on the battery issue, so I donno if I can answer your question. The tenor of the one thread was sort of “alright Nissan, we still love you, but don’t let this American company eat your lunch.” They seemed more upset that the battery wasn’t 60kWh from the start.

One interesting thing I’ve found is that the overwhelming majority of people online are buying the S and adding an aftermarket nav system.

No, no, I’m all for advice on keeping my battery healthy. This is my first EV, so anything is helpful.
Last edited by jonathanfields4ever on Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

iPlug
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:15 pm

We’re fortunate here in California and the west coast with abundant CHAdeMO and still growing. It’s not like that in the rest of the West, Midwest, and South.

The 30kWh Leaf is the wife’s commuter car. We use my commuter Plug-in Prius for any car trips we take to Tahoe, Napa, the Bay Area, and Los Angeles. These are all family trips and the hatch space is quite useful then. Our Gen 1 Leaf could do these trips but it would be a PITA with so many charging stops. A 40kWh Leaf would be fine except for the 400 mile LA trip which would also require too much down time charging. A 60kWh Leaf would be fine for all, though would be a no go if we liked to venture out east and would need Tesla level infrastructure.
2016 Leaf SV (leased) + 2012 Plug-in Prius (own), 11.43 kW Solar PV (>15MWh/yr actual production), Clipper Creek Level-2 7.7 kW charging stations x2, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater, 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF Air-Source Heat Pump (install pending)

LeftieBiker
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Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:49 pm

One interesting thing I’ve found is that the overwhelming majority of people online are buying the S and adding an aftermarket nav system.


I realize you're talking about Japan and Europe, but I've seen no sign of this in North America. Here the people who buy an S don't care about navigation.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

kennethbokor
Gold Member
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Location: Caledon, ON Canada
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:15 pm

I'm not sure if it was already stated in this thread, but the 2018 SL has a leg up on the Model 3 with the full suite of driver assist options.

I believe with the Model 3, you need to purchase AutoPilot to get the equivalent features which adds another $5K USD to the base $35K Standard Range Model 3. So you are already at $40K USD, not $35K USD as in the Page 1 chart.

Plus, to get a similar interior (leather seats, etc.) in the Model 3 you need to add another $5K USD for Premium Interior (upgraded sound system, USB ports, etc.). So now you are at $45K USD versus a similarly equipped 2018 Leaf SL.

However, it really is not a fair comparison since the Model 3 has 1.5x the range, SuperCharging and OTA - which are the Tesla selling points and have always been since day 1.

The way I see it it really comes down to pricing. If one can spend the additional funds, then the Model 3 is a superb BEV, even though the ride is a bit harsher than the 2018 Leaf. However, the Model 3 will handle much better and be more sportier and more interior room.

For many, I am guessing they don't want rockets to fly around the road but good all around transportation with safety and decent passenger/cargo room and decent range. Most do not drive more than 50-60 miles a day for average commutes and if one has to drive more than 150 miles on a regular or more frequent basis, then spend more for the Model 3.
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New Leaf Owner: Just ordered Feb 24 2018, 2018 Leaf SL in Jade Frost. Expected ETA by May 30 2018.

edatoakrun
Posts: 5074
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:29 am

edatoakrun wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:That info is no more valid than the listed MSRP

No two ways about it: you and Powersurge live in a delusion.

This entire thread ha been a delusional exercise, in that a Tesla Model 3 SR does not actually exists at this time.

Anybody who put down the $1k deposit still have a 2018 delivery date estimate from TSLA on a SR?

Do you still believe that will happen, at ~$36k?

When?
no condition is permanent

kennethbokor
Gold Member
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:35 pm
Delivery Date: 30 May 2018
Location: Caledon, ON Canada
Contact: Twitter

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:31 am

edatoakrun wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:
SageBrush wrote:No two ways about it: you and Powersurge live in a delusion.

This entire thread ha been a delusional exercise, in that a Tesla Model 3 SR does not actually exists at this time.

Anybody who put down the $1k deposit still have a 2018 delivery date estimate from TSLA on a SR?

Do you still believe that will happen, at ~$36k?

When?



I live in Canada (Toronto GTA area) and have a reservation, April 1, 2016 @ 0200am PST. Interested in SR with Paint upgrade and that's it. No bigger wheels, no AP, no Future Driverless. My current reservation shows Mid-2018 for SR/AWD SR/RWD would be Early 2019. First Production (LR, Premium, AP) shows Mid-2018 too.

To me, that is meaningless since it's been moved and still vague. Until I see Tesla really crank out the Model 3's (like 15-20K per month), I'm not believing these projections.

Yes, I do believe they will eventually ship the SR base ($35K USD) version, but not until well into 2019. They need to deliver higher margin versions in the short term (this CY) to slow down the money drain in the investments they are putting back into the company. Need to continue funding that too.

Hope this info helps.
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New Leaf Owner: Just ordered Feb 24 2018, 2018 Leaf SL in Jade Frost. Expected ETA by May 30 2018.

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