GRA
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:22 pm

SageBrush wrote:
So what? You don't think VW is a big enough customer to have financial leverage?

I have no idea, but of one thing I am certain: this is not an investment, which was your attempted argument.
And absent direct investment at Tesla levels, I doubt they will ever be cost competitive.

No, my argument was that VW and other brands have taken the steps necessary to ensure access to batteries; you were arguing that they wouldn't have that because they didn't own Gigafactories. Whether or not batteries are a core competency that you should bring in house is debatable, at least now when we're at least one, probably two and maybe 3 generations of battery tech away from having full replacement for ICE* battery packs. Doing all the R&D and building the production lines for a rapidly obsolescing tech may make a company stick with it long past its sell-by date; that may be why Nissan stuck with AESC for so long. Having suppliers make the investments in new tech may well be the way to go for now, if not forever. Or not, but either can work.

SageBrush wrote:My last comment about your Eeyore routine wrt to Tesla SuperChargers: in 4/2017 Tesla wrote a news note saying that 5200 Superchargers were installed and they intended to reach 10,000 by the end of the year to support Model 3. As of ~ now, there are 9,955 and expansion is progressing even more rapidly than last year.

So what you're acknowledging is that they blew through yet another voluntary schedule (this one for just 8 months in the future) by 5 months and counting, despite considerably increasing the average number of stalls at each SC site (getting the permits and contracts, then the people and equipment on site is the major time waster. Building more stalls is relatively trivial once there). Per supercharge.info, there were 8,352 stalls worldwide on 12/30, so that's at least an improvement compared to their usual ~70% actual vs. announced achievement rate, but again largely due to installing more stalls at each site. At the end of last year they were claiming that they'd get to 15k by the end of this year. Let's see if they make that, or blow yet another schedule. Personally, I'm more interested in expansion of the SC network rather than capacity increases, but both are necessary.

*Full replacement for ICEs = comparable price/range/weight/volume/longevity/durability/recharge rate.
Last edited by GRA on Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:42 pm

GRA wrote:*Full replacement for ICEs = comparable price/range/weight/volume/longevity/durability/recharge rate.


Ever consider that you might not get everything before we get to full replacement?
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

GRA
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:25 pm

WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:*Full replacement for ICEs = comparable price/range/weight/volume/longevity/durability/recharge rate.


Ever consider that you might not get everything before we get to full replacement?

Considered it, but lean towards not. I expect that what we'll see is a mix of BEV/FCEV/biofuels replacing fossil-fueled ICEs initially, although it's certainly possible that we'll be willing/able to accept some tradeoffs in one or more of the above areas (definitely not price, as far as privately-owned cars) and go BEV only at an earlier date. Range/recharge times will probably be an acceptable tradeoff (given a dense enough charging infrastructure), and price/longevity likewise (i.e. if packs are cheap enough. a mid-life replacement may be fine).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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LeafPowerIsIxE
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table

Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:22 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:I think that the real problem with the M3 is that they tried to build a sedansportscarluxuryminicoupe and they ended up with something that highlights some of the downsides of each style. Spartan interior, harsh ride, mediocre fit and finish - all for better performance and range. It's another near(?) miss like the Bolt. In fact, this topic should be comparing the Bolt as well, because it's more like the M3 than is the Leaf Too.


Remember when Homer Simpson built an "every-man" car for his brother's car company? The result was as expected. Too much everything, no realistic platform to actually produce it. The Model-3 looked great on paper. Elon is finding the complexities of actual production, to include his flawed supply chain and quality control deficiencies, deeply constrain deliveries. Same exact problems he experienced in the early days of the Model-S launch.

SageBrush
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:03 am

GRA wrote:So what you're acknowledging

No Eeyore. I'm telling you that Tesla functionally doubled the already best, most extensive EV charging network in the world in a year and change.
They do things at a dizzying pace.

You can compare to the VW money rollout of CCS if you like: one thumb should do.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

iPlug
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:49 am

SageBrush wrote:...I'm telling you that Tesla functionally doubled the already best, most extensive EV charging network in the world...


Anyone have the current global numbers for DC charging units for Tesla, CCS, and CHAdeMO?
2016 Leaf SV (leased) + 2012 Plug-in Prius (own), 11.43 kW Solar PV (16 MWh/yr actual production), Clipper Creek Level-2 7.7 kW charging stations x2, 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater

WetEV
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:16 pm

iPlug wrote:
SageBrush wrote:...I'm telling you that Tesla functionally doubled the already best, most extensive EV charging network in the world...


Anyone have the current global numbers for DC charging units for Tesla, CCS, and CHAdeMO?


Also China, which has their own standard, has a large charging network.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

iPlug
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:46 pm

WetEV wrote:
iPlug wrote:
SageBrush wrote:...I'm telling you that Tesla functionally doubled the already best, most extensive EV charging network in the world...


Anyone have the current global numbers for DC charging units for Tesla, CCS, and CHAdeMO?


Also China, which has their own standard, has a large charging network.


How many, if you know?

CHAdeMO currently claims:
18,030 global
2,320 USA
6,260 Europe

They claim:
CHAdeMO-compatible charge points have the largest global coverage of all fast charging standards globally

https://www.chademo.com
2016 Leaf SV (leased) + 2012 Plug-in Prius (own), 11.43 kW Solar PV (16 MWh/yr actual production), Clipper Creek Level-2 7.7 kW charging stations x2, 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater

GRA
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:15 pm

SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote:So what you're acknowledging

No Eeyore. I'm telling you that Tesla functionally doubled the already best, most extensive EV charging network in the world in a year and change.
They do things at a dizzying pace.

If being 5+ months overdue on an 8 month schedule is a dizzying pace to you, added to all their previous failures to meet their own schedules. I call it piss-poor business. BTW, name-calling? Do you wish to discuss things like an adult, or as if we're a couple of 12-year olds?

SageBrush wrote:You can compare to the VW money rollout of CCS if you like: one thumb should do.

Give it a year and we'll see if I agree with you. Right now they're starting from where Tesla was in 2012 (seven SCs at the end of the year). At the moment they have four open with another 11 'Coming Soon'. Hopefully their version of 'Coming Soon' is more realistic than Tesla's, and really means 'Under Construction' or at least 'Permits granted'.
Last edited by GRA on Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

jonathanfields4ever
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:33 pm

GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote:So what you're acknowledging

No Eeyore. I'm telling you that Tesla functionally doubled the already best, most extensive EV charging network in the world in a year and change.
They do things at a dizzying pace.

If being 5+ months overdue on an 8 month schedule is a dizzying pace to you, added to all their previous failures to meet their own schedules. I call it piss-poor business. BTW, name-calling? Do you wish to discuss things like an adult, or as if we're a couple of 12-year olds?

SageBrush wrote:You can compare to the VW money rollout of CCS if you like: one thumb should do.

Give it a year and we'll see if I agree with you. Right now they're starting from where Tesla was in 2012 (seven SCs at the end of the year).


Don’t bother with him. He gets upset and calls people names or insults them. If you call him out, he gets butthurt and blocks you. Our conversation in this thread was ridiculous. I got a bit heated once, but I tried to be reasonable throughout. After insulting me and being hard-headed for several pages, he just blocked me.

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