GRA
Posts: 8565
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:17 pm

SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote: I'll judge them by how well they meet their own schedules.

Good. It is way past time for you to become informed of their published schedules.

I informed myself of them as soon as they published them and am monitoring them to see how they do, the exact same standard I apply to Tesla. I gave Tesla a pass on their schedules for 2012 and 2013, and even the first half of 2014, while the learning curve was steep and they were making a lot of beginner mistakes, such as not foreseeing the need for a different stall design in areas that had to be cleared by snowplows, something that isn't an issue in the Bay Area or most of California FTM. They had a similar "Doh!" moment when once again customers had to point out that a pull-through or at least long pull-into stall was a near necessity for Model Xs (or S's) towing trailers.

For the full 2014 year on, the learning curve excuse for repeatedly failing to meet their SC schedules just doesn't cut it.

SageBrush wrote:So, you have been critical of Nissan. If you say so. Why have you stopped ? Once a promise is fulfilled, does it drop off your plate ? Has the Nissan LEAF promise been fulfilled, albeit 7 years late ?

What makes you think I've stopped? How could you have missed my criticism of them for once again failing to provide a capacity warranty with defined values for the 2018, just as I'd criticized them in the past for failing to do so with the 2013+ (the 2011-2012s were the only MYs that had defined values rather than bars, and that was only because of the Phoenix test and the class action suit, the need for either of which to get them to do right by their customers I berated them for, repeatedly and at length). I gave Nissan kudos for introducing the the first mass-produced, relatively affordable if limited BEV; virtually everything they've done since then has been either stupid, inadequate, or too minor to bother about. I wrote the 2018 LEAF off for the full range of continental climates when it became clear that Nissan wasn't going to improve the battery pack or the warranty.

SageBrush wrote:I'm tired of your double standard BS. Welcome to my ignore list.

Suit yourself. At least there may be a more civil tone to discussions here.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

iPlug
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:37 pm

SageBrush wrote:Urban centric ChadeMo and throttled LEAFs ...
Is there really anything to discuss here ? It is obvious that ChadeMo cars are not suitable for long distance travel.

I'd go so far as to characterize ChadeMo as a fast destination charger. Typically out of the way and/or expensive so not widely used and fairly useless. ...


That’s a different topic worthy of discussion, but the original claim was that Tesla had the most extensive EV charging network in the world. That does not seem to be the case, but still worth investigating if this is the case in North America. I don’t know, can’t find Tesla numbers, so if someone here has these that would be helpful.

As stated and CHAdeMO maps show, CHAdeMO is not urbanized but mostly regional + urbanized in “flyover” states. I don’t live in an urban center and have enough experience with DC charging and have plenty more regional CHAdeMO DC options than Tesla. Also, CHAdeMO stations are not out of the way. We have lots of these conveniently right off the highway, in fact more locations off the highway than Tesla. This was not the case a few years ago.

The West Coast and the Northeast have better coverage than Tesla, that is obvious from the maps. In between these areas it’s no challenge. Tesla is the uncontested winner. That’s a big factor to consider if one lives in those areas . It’s also an important issue if driving is ones preferred mode of long distance travel.

But many fly when driving time takes longer. For us the cutoff is ~400 miles. That’s still well within our area where CHAdeMO coverage is superior. A valid point to consider is that despite that one has to sit around longer at CHAdeMO. No quick bio-breaks for CHAdeMO, it would have to be a meal stop.

All of this is good stuff to talk about and quite relevant to the thread. Potential buyers of the 2019 60 kWh Leaf and 2019 Tesla SR should consider this and many other factors.
2016 Leaf SV (leased) + 2012 Plug-in Prius (own), 11.43 kW Solar PV (16 MWh/yr actual production), Clipper Creek Level-2 7.7 kW charging stations x2, 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater

GRA
Posts: 8565
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:41 pm

finman100 wrote:Just how is that Nissan Fast Charge network coming along? Really?

and the battery degradation lawsuits? yeah, thought so.


So over it. ONE company is doing everything they can to bring about sustainable transport. The others? Just falling further behind the EV curve.

Oh well.

Carry on with your FUD. it's pretty entertaining.

Not sure who you're referring to here. It's certainly not me, as I'be been saying for a few years now that I thought CCS would overtake CHAdeMO everywhere except Japan (and China at a minimum, where GB/T will rule), given the number of manufacturers using each standard, what should be a lower cost for CCS on the car, and the fact that at that time there was no major technical advantage to either (not true at the moment, as CCS is ahead on charging speed for now). I've also been saying for years that if I were BEV dictator of the world, everyone would have been using Tesla's connector standard. I think that was one of the few issues that Tony Williams and I agreed on.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

iPlug
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:44 pm

GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:So, you have been critical of Nissan. If you say so. Why have you stopped ? Once a promise is fulfilled, does it drop off your plate ? Has the Nissan LEAF promise been fulfilled, albeit 7 years late ?

What makes you think I've stopped? How could you have missed my criticism of them for once again failing to provide a capacity warranty with defined values for the 2018, just as I'd criticized them in the past for failing to do so with the 2013+ (the 2011-2012s were the only MYs that had defined values rather than bars, and that was only because of the Phoenix test and the class action suit, the need for either of which to get them to do right by their customers I berated them for, repeatedly and at length)...


Can concur with your recollection. Let's keep the discussion constructive, plenty of room to discuss pros and missteps from both of these manufacturers.
2016 Leaf SV (leased) + 2012 Plug-in Prius (own), 11.43 kW Solar PV (16 MWh/yr actual production), Clipper Creek Level-2 7.7 kW charging stations x2, 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater

SageBrush
Posts: 2408
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:47 pm

iPlug wrote:The West Coast and the Northeast have better coverage than Tesla, that is obvious from the maps.

A superficial glance agrees with you, but think about how long distance driving is actually handled efficiently: charge is taken on from a low SoC to increase average power flow, and just enough (with some reserve) to reach the next station.

The Tesla network is planned to optimize EV long distance traveling just about anywhere you want to go. Just about any Tesla can hop from charger to charger at a throughput travel speed of about 55 mph all day long, and much faster for a 400 mile travel day.
The ChadeMo network ... is not.

The ChadeMo network is in varying degrees of disrepair.
The Tesla network is uber reliable.

The ChadeMo network often has one or perhaps two stations.
Tesla locations average ~ 7 stations, up to ~ 40 stations on frequently traveled routes.

Tesla charging is ~ 3-4x faster than ChadeMo as a matter of practice (25 vs 75- 100 kW)

The network coverage has to be judged as an amalgam of these parameters.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles

SageBrush
Posts: 2408
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:07 pm

I forgot to comment ... Tesla Vs ChadeMo in the US:

Wikipedia says
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAdeMO#Deployment
2204 ChadeMo as of July 2017

TheVerge says
https://www.theverge.com/2017/2/22/1470 ... ada-mexico
2636 Tesla as of Feb 2017

Care to guess which network is deploying faster since those numbers were published ?
The ChadeMo website says
2320 as of today in the US
So since 7/2017, 126 new stations in 11 months.

I think Tesla deployed about 2000 in the past year in the US and plan to double that this year as part of world-wide expansion targeting 18,000 stations by end of 2018 from the current 10,000, up from 5,000 early in 2017.

Way more Tesla
3x faster
Much smarter dispersion
Deployment rate in NA this year ~ 40:1

There may be points to consier in the Tesla Vs any other EV manufacturer debate, but the network is not one of them. Oh, and by the way: Tesla will dislose SuperCharger v.3 around the end of the year. No details that I know of yet, but the EPA documents for the Model 3 say that 400 volt, 525 Amp charging is supported. That works out to a peak charge of 210 kW. Compare that to travel on the ChadeMo network: 45 peak, throttled down to low 20s kW in the most modern LEAF when the battery is warm.

Compare a Tesla to an ICE for long distance travel;
Compare a LEAF to a bicycle
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles

iPlug
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:46 pm

Thanks for the links. It seemed recently they would be close in the U.S. and looks like Tesla is a bit ahead. Certainly, Tesla will very likely be far ahead with the number of stations in the U.S. soon.

Agree, it’s a real PITA, even if technically possible, to do trips long distance with CHAdeMO as current infrastructure and vehicles are.

I saw an update to one of your posts - do you have your Tesla? If so, congrats!
2016 Leaf SV (leased) + 2012 Plug-in Prius (own), 11.43 kW Solar PV (16 MWh/yr actual production), Clipper Creek Level-2 7.7 kW charging stations x2, 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater

finman100
Posts: 324
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:42 am
Delivery Date: 06 Jun 2014
Location: Albany, OR

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:54 am

As i live and breathe...for 4 years of wonderful Leaf experience I have not seen ANY improvement in the Chademo landscape here in the PNW, specifically Oregon.

ONE stall per location is all there ever has been (Aeroviroment, West Coast Green Highway, http://www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/)...and all there ever will be it seems.

And if the particular station you are needing is broken or being utilized or ICED, you hunt for the next one down the line...or even back the other direction if need-be! I've experienced ALL of the above scenarios...it's been, er, an adventure. Too few want that kind of uncertainty. Why would they bother?

Case in point if you care to read further: I want to go to Portlandia this weekend, taking the Leaf is easy with a stop in Woodburn at a CRUCIAL DC fast charger from Aerovironment. CRUCIAL. I look on plugshare. it's down and has been VERY unreliable for quite awhile. I rely then on the next
DC fast charger in Wilsonville. A Blink network. it's up and functional. Yay! When a Blink charger is more reliable than the actual ones in the West Coast Green Highway...that's just sad.

Rant over. But I really don't see these types of issues with a certain 'other' fast charging network. plenty of stalls per location, more on the way, VERY reliable. High-power. Okay, some are shared parking spots and can be ICED, sure. Overall...never mind. it's just too frustrating to continue.

Which fueling infrastructure do you want to rely on for long distance travel?
Albany, Oregon
2014 Silver SV with charge/LED package. June 2014, I'm in the EV game!
46,000 miles
17.5 kWh on 100% charge (51-ish Ah), down 1 bar
4.2 miles/kWh average
Best trip: all of 'em. They're all no-gas!

WetEV
Posts: 2067
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:14 am

finman100 wrote:Which fueling infrastructure do you want to rely on for long distance travel?



Amtrak.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

derkraut
Posts: 1499
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:39 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 004248
Location: San Diego vicinity

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:21 am

I never go more than 30 miles from home with the Leaf anymore---do all my charging in the garage at home at night on the timer. For longer trips, it's the Prius. It is what it is, I guess.
Derkraut
Color: Cayenne SLE, ETEC trim
reserved: 5/15/2010
Leaf del. 6/14/2011
New Traction battery installed on 7/28/2017:

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