SageBrush
Posts: 2217
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:08 pm

You and I have very different notions of dumb.
Buying a new car when you do not have $1000 to set aside in a fully refundable reservation strikes me as nuts. At least in the US; I gather that buying a used car in Japan is a different set of numbers. Which is perhaps all the more reason why your post comparing LEAF cost in Japan to Model 3 cost in the US is silly.

There is a funny irony going on here. While the total deliveries of the '18 LEAF in the US is so far as I know ZERO, and a firm date for the start of deliveries is hard to come by, we all expect at least some deliveries somewhere in the next month. And we all presume that a LEAF ordered today will be available before a Tesla reserved today. Yet the latter is only true because demand is minuscule in the US while Tesla has to work through a huge order backlog. Talk about making lemonade out of lemons!

Now about delivery dates: Notice that this thread is titled Tesla Model 3 SR. Not AWD
If I wanted an SR my delivery date is targeted to early 2018. That leaves Tesla some wiggle room but my earlier statement of delivery within 2-3 months is reasonable. Not that it matters to me -- I paid Tesla my ~ $50 in opportunity cost interest to take delivery when I am ready, for the exact car I want. No problems here. Does that make me rich ? I'll say just not stupid.

Is the Tesla a higher TCO than the '18 LEAF ?
I think it reasonable to expect 15 years of full service from the Tesla and 8 years of hobbled service from the LEAF. You do the arithmetic.


I never said it was a “luxury vehicle.” In fact, I said it was silly to call it that if you look back at my post.

My error.
Last edited by SageBrush on Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:48 pm, edited 4 times in total.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12889
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:17 pm

iPlug wrote:If we’re going with past is precedent, the purchase/lease threads here confirm that few pay listed MSRP or advertised lease terms. We paid way under advertised terms for our Leaf lease.

All of these things remain negotiable with Nissan dealers. It will be hard to get a bargain the first few months of most new generation vehicles, but thereafter no reason to believe the future will be different with the Leaf.


Agreed. If I take my most recent experience as an example;

Nissan lease terms when I got my 2016 S30 was $1999 down, $199 a month, 36 months, 35 payments. 12,000 miles a year. Total basic cost; $8964 plus residual of roughly $11,000

So I added QC (well sort of... although listed as an option the VERY short run of 2016 S30's ALL came with QC) an additional 9,000 miles.

zero down, $245.99 a month, 35 payments. total cost; $8609.65

So how much below the lease term is that? Roughly $3000-$3500. I don't have exact figures but the difference was loyalty cash and employee discount program thru Blackstone Marketing. The lease terms had the Nissan factory incentive $4125 (in that neighborhood) along with $7500 lease cash already figured into it. Part of it also went into a reduced residual which was lower ($8100 or so) due to the discounts and the increased lease miles.

As far as less discounts early in the release? That is possible but there is also some consideration expected as a returning customer to the same dealership.

Either way, its all off the bottom line of an MSRP that starts out nearly even with the T3. That is where the $10,000 comes in for me. I don't have an option to get the T3 and most of the fed tax credit even if it were available today which it is not. The WA State incentive will likely start its very short one month sunset on in March which is another $3200 consideration. Granted a lease means the residual will not be tax free so that benefit shrinks to roughly $2100 give or take. But its not hard to see the $10,000 difference in price.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 5775 miles, 488 GIDs, 38 kwh 113.37 Ahr available, SOH 98.21, Hx 115.75
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SageBrush
Posts: 2217
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:22 pm

iPlug wrote:If we’re going with past is precedent, the purchase/lease threads here confirm that few pay listed MSRP or advertised lease terms. We paid way under advertised terms for our Leaf lease.

All of these things remain negotiable with Nissan dealers. It will be hard to get a bargain the first few months of most new generation vehicles, but thereafter no reason to believe the future will be different with the Leaf.

Very likely, and a quite reasonable assumption.

But if you want a LEAF *in the next few months*, because, you know, you cannot get a Model 3 *in the next few months*, because you lacked the $1000 in savings or foresight to reserve, you will pay MSRP for the LEAF.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles

jonathanfields4ever
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:55 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Feb 2018
Location: Kyoto

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:22 pm

SageBrush wrote:You and I have very different notions of dumb.
Buying a new car when you do not have $1000 to set aside in a fully refundable reservation strikes me as nuts. At least in the US; I gather that buying a used car in Japan is a different set of numbers. Which is perhaps all the more reason why your post comparing LEAF cost in Japan to Model 3 cost in the US is silly.

There is a funny irony going on here. While the total deliveries of the '18 LEAF in the US is so far as I know ZERO, and a firm date for the start of deliveries is hard to come by, we all expect at least some deliveries somewhere in the next month. And we all presume that a LEAF ordered today will be available before a Tesla reserved today. Yet the latter is only true because demand is minuscule in the US. Talk about making lemonade out of lemons!

Now about delivery dates: Notice that this thread is titled Tesla Model 3 SR. Not AWD
If I wanted an SR my delivery date is targeted to early 2018. That leaves Tesla some wiggle room but my earlier statement of delivery within 2-3 months is reasonable. Not that it matters to me -- I paid Tesla my ~ $50 in opportunity cost interest to take delivery when I am ready, for the exact car I want. No problems here. Does that make me rich ? I'll say just not stupid.


Thank you for proving my point. Next time name your thread something else.

SageBrush
Posts: 2217
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:31 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
iPlug wrote:Nissan lease terms when I got my 2016 S30 was $1999 down, $199 a month, 36 months, 35 payments. 12,000 miles a year. Total basic cost; $8964 plus residual of roughly $11,000

So I added QC (well sort of... although listed as an option the VERY short run of 2016 S30's ALL came with QC) an additional 9,000 miles.

zero down, $245.99 a month, 35 payments. total cost; $8609.65

So how much below the lease term is that? Roughly $3000-$3500.

8964 - 8609 = 355
How much is another 9000 miles ? Perhaps ~ $900 ?

Lucky you, to have the employee discount, although it is perhaps only also applicable to Ed the talking troll.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles

finman100
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:42 am
Delivery Date: 06 Jun 2014
Location: Albany, OR

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:37 pm

I'll jump in.

Let us know how the quick charging works out for you in a Leaf. If the equipment (DC level 3) isn't broken or non-functioning, they are in use at ONE SLOT PER location. You want a "quick" 20 min. charge it just doubled. Even in my area (PNW/Willamette Valley, OR), where the AV network is the best of the best, the above scenario(s) play out EVERYTIME I venture out of my now degraded 65 mile range (18 kWh per Leafspy). And doing more than one quick charge per day, you know, for long(ish) range? without a TMS for the batteries? in the Summer? good luck. history and data are NOT on Nissan's side here.

There's a reason Tesla leads ALL.

More power to those drivers who do not need to public charge or QC, so using a Leaf is an option...as a second car. or a single person. Super! But people buy on emotion and wants, not practicality. "What if i need to go on a long trip, can this car do it, even though i travel less than 40 miles everyday for the past 20 years?" THAT'S why Tesla Model 3 has the number of reservations.

To REPLACE the gassers, long range AND a charging network is needed. Yeah, I'll believe all the words on paper about VW diesel gate dollars funding a network of 100 kW stations when they actually get built.

Can't wait to hear about that US cross-country trip in these new 'long range' Leafs. sarcasm.
Albany, Oregon
2014 Silver SV with charge/LED package. June 2014, I'm in the EV game!
43,000 miles
18.5 kWh on 100% charge (52-ish Ah), down 1 bar
4.2 miles/kWh average
Best trip: all of 'em. They're all no-gas!

Evoforce
Posts: 779
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:42 pm

Um... The OP made a table to allow some comparisons. The high end Nissan Leaf and the low end Tesla Model 3 especially should be compared if wanting or needing a car with those features. It is informative. Each individual will make up their their own mind as to what will apply for their needs. For someone to say that Model 3 is vaporware is laughable! I haven't ordered a Model 3, but for my wants and needs at this time, between the two, Model 3 is the clear better choice.
Last edited by Evoforce on Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

SageBrush
Posts: 2217
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:52 pm

jonathanfields4ever wrote:Thank you for proving my point. Next time name your thread something else.

That is the Tesla relevant portion of the title. Note the LEAF relevant portion in the title and the table.

After all, what would be the point of mentioning the LEAF part of the title when I was pointing out the difference between SR and AWD sub-models? So far as I know, the LEAF has neither.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles

jonathanfields4ever
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:55 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Feb 2018
Location: Kyoto

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:49 pm

SageBrush wrote:
jonathanfields4ever wrote:Thank you for proving my point. Next time name your thread something else.

That is the Tesla relevant portion of the title. Note the LEAF relevant portion in the title and the table.

After all, what would be the point of mentioning the LEAF part of the title when I was pointing out the difference between SR and AWD sub-models? So far as I know, the LEAF has neither.


No.

This thread would appear to the reasonable person to be about comparing the Model 3 and the Leaf. I attempted to do so and removed as much of my personal circumstances as possible in order to make it fair. Where I live and in my situation the Leaf is the best and only option. But I thought it would be interesting to discuss the Leaf as a viable alternative to the Model 3 given availability and price. A buyer unconcerned with extra features who just wants to get off gas could probably get an S Leaf for $30K out the door within a month. I got a fully loaded SV for $33K. Further down the road lease offers could be even better. A Tesla Model 3 will cost $39,700 all told. That makes the comparison very, very interesting.

The Model 3 is a better car, but how much better? And can the Leaf continue its role as the affordable EV for the masses, or will the Model 3 take its place? That was the discussion I was hoping for, but instead I got veiled personal attacks. I'm not the only person to point this out, but this thread went in the entirely wrong direction. What did you want to get out of this when you started it? Because it seems like you wanted everyone to stand in a circle and yank on their superchargers.

SageBrush
Posts: 2217
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:02 pm

Since you ask ...
The OP was meant to be an informative table devoid of bias or personal preference. Just the facts.

The motivation was actually Ed the Tesla troll, who referred to the Model 3 SR as the "stripper" model. It got me to wondering just how de-contented the car was compared to the LEAF. The answer turned out to be well provisioned, but it took enough digging around that I decided to share the effort and rebutt the trolling.

Of course specific content varies in its importance to each person. I don't value heated steering wheels at all, but I am quite sorry to not get TACC unless I buy the AP package in the Tesla. And on the LEAF side, lack of a robust and fast L3 charging network and the concern that the battery degradation will continue in the poor graces of earlier generations are HUGE negatives to me. So much so that if the Model 3 did not exist I would not be buying an EV to replace my Prius Prime. It also does not help the LEAF case in the slightest that Nissan has been quite the a**hole when it comes to customer support of their battery degradation problems.

The thread then took a perhaps predictable turn of LEAF fans trying to stereotype the Model 3 as a rich man's car when a fair review of the current facts suggests just the opposite. You ended up in the cross-hairs and for that I apologize.
Last edited by SageBrush on Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles

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