kennethbokor
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:58 am

SageBrush wrote:
kennethbokor wrote:My goal is not to discourage any Model 3 or Leaf lovers, but to provide a snapshot comparison of overall price point and value that can be had today with these two vehicles so that one can make a more better informed decision. Hope this helps.

You have cherry picked the configurations and ended up with two cars that are quite different.

Just from memory, in your Tesla config that is not in the LEAF:
[list=]All glass roof
12-way driver
6 way front passenger
TMS (double the longevity of the car ?)
SuperCharger network at ~ 90 kW
~ 55 kWh battery
Rear USB
Driver profiles
High quality interior
Large screen
Too many cameras to count
Auto folding mirros
[/list]

Pardon my saying so, but your 40 kWh LEAF is going to depreciate like a rock without a TMS and hobbled by a crappy DCFC network. The cutesy feature set cannot make up for basic deficiencies in the car. I've decided to skip the ACC (even though I will miss it!) and buy an AWD Tesla instead. I'll decide about the premium interior after I sit in the car. So for me a well equipped, superbly engineered EV that will completely replace my hybrid plug-in for the next decade or two is as low as ~ $40k USD.

Econobox or not, the LEAF cannot even be a consideration.



Good for you and all the best in your choice! Won't be seeing you on this forum any more. There is a great Model 3 Forum you can go to at www.model3ownersclub.com.
---------
New Leaf Owner: Just ordered Feb 24 2018, 2018 Leaf SL in Jade Frost. Expected ETA by May 30 2018.

finman100
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:01 pm

A. If your 2018 Leaf 2.0 is not for longish road trips (you know, what some would perceive you should be able to do with any car), then more power to you. Also, don't buy a Leaf in hot climates. or use DC quick charging more than 3 successive times in one day. or expect 150 miles after 3 years of normal use. Seriously. come back in 2021 and let us know how that is going. (hint, no TMS for the battery equals no deal)

B. If u see the complete ICE-replacement Tesla and the Supercharger network (WORLDWIDE!) as worthwhile, then you make your choices.


for people choosing A: you will be disappointed if you think a Leaf 2.0 is driving across the US. Or even farther than 150 miles charge per day. DC quick charging is still a crapshoot and the masses will not tolerate a crapshoot. Not robust. not reliable. not as widespread as needed. Seriously, I've been a Leaf fan for almost 4 years and LOVE it but know the ins and outs of Public DC fast charging. (hint, it's mostly outs).

for people choosing B: you will have to weigh the FUD being thrown out there against Tesla. Right now as of this posting a $35,000 Tesla is not available. You wait for that one to be released or compromise with selection 'A', knowing the shortfalls of a medium range EV with a spotty QC network. And maybe you CAN get by with that in your particular situation.

Bottom line should say something:

Many people are waiting for choice B (number of reservations to get a Model 3 are pretty much higher than a lot of EV sales to date).

Many are also not waiting and a Leaf 2.0 will work just fine.

The Bolt is also suffering from the above situation. Works great for many but hits the wall at about 220 miles (hint, no decent and persistent DC charging network to date".
Albany, Oregon
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4.2 miles/kWh average
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kennethbokor
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:17 pm

finman100 wrote:A. If your 2018 Leaf 2.0 is not for longish road trips (you know, what some would perceive you should be able to do with any car), then more power to you. Also, don't buy a Leaf in hot climates. or use DC quick charging more than 3 successive times in one day. or expect 150 miles after 3 years of normal use. Seriously. come back in 2021 and let us know how that is going. (hint, no TMS for the battery equals no deal)

B. If u see the complete ICE-replacement Tesla and the Supercharger network (WORLDWIDE!) as worthwhile, then you make your choices.


for people choosing A: you will be disappointed if you think a Leaf 2.0 is driving across the US. Or even farther than 150 miles charge per day. DC quick charging is still a crapshoot and the masses will not tolerate a crapshoot. Not robust. not reliable. not as widespread as needed. Seriously, I've been a Leaf fan for almost 4 years and LOVE it but know the ins and outs of Public DC fast charging. (hint, it's mostly outs).

for people choosing B: you will have to weigh the FUD being thrown out there against Tesla. Right now as of this posting a $35,000 Tesla is not available. You wait for that one to be released or compromise with selection 'A', knowing the shortfalls of a medium range EV with a spotty QC network. And maybe you CAN get by with that in your particular situation.

Bottom line should say something:

Many people are waiting for choice B (number of reservations to get a Model 3 are pretty much higher than a lot of EV sales to date).

Many are also not waiting and a Leaf 2.0 will work just fine.

The Bolt is also suffering from the above situation. Works great for many but hits the wall at about 220 miles (hint, no decent and persistent DC charging network to date".



All great points. No right or wrong here, just info for people to look at. However, being that this is a Leaf Forum, I am betting the large membership who are on this site and like yourself love the Leaf. A person needs to look at their situation and needs (driving ranges and patterns, budget, family size, etc.) and choose what works best for you. In the end, the Leaf 2.0 is a better choice for me for many reasons. For others, Model 3, Bolt, Model S, new I-Pace, etc, etc may be better.

My post was just staying on topic to do a comparison of the Leaf 2.0 and Model 3. Not all of the options in the marketplace today. Yes, infrastructure is key, however I don't believe that DC FC will get worse but only better. Tesla is only one brand and does not and will never own the BEV market. Others are playing catch up and very soon (within next 3-5 years) have multiple BEV products for consumers to choose from. And you can bet these won't be Tesla Charge Port optioned nor will work with SuperChargers. You are naive to think that Tesla will have more chargers in the world deployed than all other "standards". Simply won't happen. They may have a leadership now, but as some manufactures plan to build over a 1,000,000 EV's a year by 2025 or sooner (and that is just one manufacturer stating that and there are dozens getting into this game), more DC FC will have to be deployed to handle this kind of scale and many companies, governments and collaborations are pushing into this realm quickly.

I do agree that TMS is very important for longevity of battery life and over the Leaf, Tesla certainly has an advantage. Their battery tech so far has proven to be rock solid with sub-10% loss of SOC over lifespan on earliest models so far.

Again, just food for thought and informed decisions. If you have the money, buy a Tesla. Its that simple. If budget is a factor, then there are lots of other choices out there and the Leaf 2.0 is IMO a top choice.
---------
New Leaf Owner: Just ordered Feb 24 2018, 2018 Leaf SL in Jade Frost. Expected ETA by May 30 2018.

edatoakrun
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:15 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:
SageBrush wrote:No two ways about it: you and Powersurge live in a delusion.

This entire thread ha been a delusional exercise, in that a Tesla Model 3 SR does not actually exists at this time.

Anybody who put down the $1k deposit still have a 2018 delivery date estimate from TSLA on a SR?

Do you still believe that will happen, at ~$36k?

When?

And how many of those loss-leader variants will TSLA ever actually sell, when (a fact missing from TSLA's latest 10-k) and if it ever begins to?

Tesla's 10-K Shows A Newfound Modesty

..II. The $35,000 "Variant"

When Tesla announced its Model 3 pricing last July, I wrote an article called, Farewell to Tesla's Phony Mass-Market Story.

In it, I pointed out that most of the full federal income tax credits would go to those buying versions of the car costing $50k+ (that is, the wealthiest car buyers). I questioned Tesla's claim that the car was truly "in production." And I wrote:

Tesla has already spec'd out the Model 3 to be very unattractive in its base version, and, just to be certain, Tesla will not offer any base versions for sale for many months to come. And that was a wise business decision, because Tesla will bleed heavily each time it sells a Model 3 for $35,000.

Naturally, for saying all these things, I was much derided in the comments section. So it goes.

Now, in the 10-K, here's how Tesla describes the Model 3:

Model 3 is our third generation electric vehicle. We began deliveries in July 2017. Model 3 is produced at the Tesla Factory in Fremont, California, and at Gigafactory 1. We will offer a variant of this vehicle at a starting price of $35,000 and expect to produce Model 3 vehicles at far higher volumes than our Model S or Model X vehicles.

Got that? The $35,000 Model 3 is no longer the mass-market raison d'être for the car, but has become merely a "variant" of the vehicle.

By the way, I think Tesla did the right thing by choosing this language. It helps blunt the force of later arguments that Tesla's claim about a $35k Model 3 was misleading...

https://seekingalpha.com/article/415066 ... nd-modesty
no condition is permanent

WetEV
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:50 pm

SageBrush wrote:Pardon my saying so, but your 40 kWh LEAF is going to depreciate like a rock without a TMS


Not in cool places. My battery has spent less than a day above the threshold for cooling with the Volt Thermal Management System over the part 6 years.
WetEV
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GRA
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:24 pm

WetEV wrote:
SageBrush wrote:Pardon my saying so, but your 40 kWh LEAF is going to depreciate like a rock without a TMS


Not in cool places. My battery has spent less than a day above the threshold for cooling with the Volt Thermal Management System over the part 6 years.

Which would be fine if Nissan restricted sales to the PNW, NW Europe and areas with similar climates, but they don't. For current battery tech to be able to provide reasonable longevity (value for money) across the variety of climates that the U.S. and other parts of the world experience, you need a TMS which can maintain the battery in a limited, favorable temperature range. As we all know NIssan failed that from the start, and unless the upcoming 60kWh pack from LG Chem has an active TMS, will continue to do so barring some battery breakthrough. We just had a 30kWh LEAF owner with a touch over 18k miles in Rocklin, Ca. report their fourth bar loss. Rocklin's a suburb of Sacramento and it does get hot there in the summer,

    Month High / Low(°F) Rain
    January 57° / 38° 8 days
    February 62° / 41° 7 days
    March 68° / 43° 8 days
    April 73° / 45° 4 days
    May 82° / 51° 1 day
    June 91° / 57° 1 day
    July 97° / 62° 0 days
    August 96° / 60° 0 days
    September 91° / 56° 1 day

    October 80° / 49° 3 days
    November 66° / 41° 6 days
    December 57° / 37° 7 days

but so what? It gets hot lots of places.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

iPlug
Posts: 131
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Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:35 pm

GRA wrote:...For current battery tech to be able to provide reasonable longevity (value for money) across the variety of climates that the U.S. and other parts of the world experience, you need a TMS which can maintain the battery in a limited, favorable temperature range. As we all know NIssan failed that from the start, and unless the upcoming 60kWh pack from LG Chem has an active TMS, will continue to do so barring some battery breakthrough. We just had a 30kWh LEAF owner with a touch over 18k miles in Rocklin, Ca. report their fourth bar loss. Rocklin's a suburb of Sacramento and it does get hot there in the summer,

    Month High / Low(°F) Rain
    January 57° / 38° 8 days
    February 62° / 41° 7 days
    March 68° / 43° 8 days
    April 73° / 45° 4 days
    May 82° / 51° 1 day
    June 91° / 57° 1 day
    July 97° / 62° 0 days
    August 96° / 60° 0 days
    September 91° / 56° 1 day

    October 80° / 49° 3 days
    November 66° / 41° 6 days
    December 57° / 37° 7 days

but so what? It gets hot lots of places.


Last year we had 26 days 100ºF+

https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KMCC/2017/1/1/CustomHistory.html?dayend=31&monthend=12&yearend=2017&req_city=&req_state=&req_statename=&reqdb.zip=&reqdb.magic=&reqdb.wmo=

But these 30kWh batteries are degrading faster than expected in cooler climates as well. I'm currently at the Nissan dealership so they can verify my 8 bar status, run diagnostics, and order my new battery,
Last edited by iPlug on Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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GRA
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:39 pm


Yup, it does get hot there - the figures I gave are monthly averages. Oddly enough, last summer was quite mild in my part of the Bay Area, while much of the rest of the state sweltered.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

lilly
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:53 pm

The internet is full of blowhards who must be rich because their solution to any problem is to throw money at it. Yes, the Tesla is a better car, BUT it costs at least $5000 more than the Leaf. For the leaf's price point, engineering tradeoffs will have to be made.

That said, other leaf owners told me to expect a 30% battery degradation in 5 years. Since I live 2 miles from work, my battery should last 15 years. I seriously doubt any Tesla owner will drive their car for more than 15 years. I am not interested in the resale value.

That said, I also have a Model 3 on order. I can afford 1 tesla, not 2.

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:13 pm

lilly wrote:The internet is full of blowhards who must be rich because their solution to any problem is to throw money at it. Yes, the Tesla is a better car, BUT it costs at least $5000 more than the Leaf. For the leaf's price point, engineering tradeoffs will have to be made.

That said, other leaf owners told me to expect a 30% battery degradation in 5 years. Since I live 2 miles from work, my battery should last 15 years. I seriously doubt any Tesla owner will drive their car for more than 15 years. I am not interested in the resale value.

That said, I also have a Model 3 on order. I can afford 1 tesla, not 2.


$5000 cheaper is a low ball figure. My LEAF pay off (haven't spent a dime yet) is $22,573.59


Granted I didn't get what I ordered (which is still 3-6 weeks off) but got S with climate and QC.

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