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Re: 1200 Mile Trip in the 2018 LEAF

Posted: Mon May 06, 2019 7:34 am
by Nubo
WetEV wrote:
OrientExpress wrote:But the original argument still stands, that BEVs are not a reasonable alternative for ICEs or hybrids for long distance travel and that won’t change until a BEV can meet or beat the 80/400/30/30 rule.


What is "the 80/400/30/30 rule"?


I'm guessing

80 mph
400 mile range (@80mph)
30 minute charge
???

Re: 1200 Mile Trip in the 2018 LEAF

Posted: Mon May 06, 2019 7:48 am
by OrientExpress
The 80/400/30/30 rule are a set of BEV benchmarks that measure parity with ICE vehicles in the US. For BEVs to achieve mass market acceptance, they will need to achieve parity with all of these.

Today many BEVs have achieved parity with some of these benchmarks, but none have achieved them all.

80 - A BEV must be able to travel at 80 mph for its entire battery capacity and do it repeatedly.
400 - A BEV must be able to travel 400 miles on one charge
30 - A BEV must be able to recharge to achieve 80/400 in less than 30 minutes, and be able to do this repeatedly.
30 - A BEV must cost less than $30K before incentives and must be able to achieve 80/400/30.

What is the basis for 80/400/30/30?

Today there are any number of ICE vehicles available that can achieve this easily, and this has been the case for over ten years. For BEVs to receive mainstream buyer consideration they must have parity with the vehicles that they aim to replace.

Re: 1200 Mile Trip in the 2018 LEAF

Posted: Mon May 06, 2019 3:38 pm
by jjeff
OrientExpress wrote:The 80/400/30/30 rule are a set of BEV benchmarks that measure parity with ICE vehicles in the US. For BEVs to achieve mass market acceptance, they will need to achieve parity with all of these.

Today many BEVs have achieved parity with some of these benchmarks, but none have achieved them all.

80 - A BEV must be able to travel at 80 mph for its entire battery capacity and do it repeatedly.
400 - A BEV must be able to travel 400 miles on one charge
30 - A BEV must be able to recharge to achieve 80/400 in less than 30 minutes, and be able to do this repeatedly.
30 - A BEV must cost less than $30K before incentives and must be able to achieve 80/400/30.

What is the basis for 80/400/30/30?

Today there are any number of ICE vehicles available that can achieve this easily, and this has been the case for over ten years. For BEVs to receive mainstream buyer consideration they must have parity with the vehicles that they aim to replace.

Our 12 year old Prius can easily beat that. Now we don't normally drive 80, generally 70ish on the interstate but our normal interstate driving would be:
70ish/600+/3?/25
I'm guessing at 80mph it would still be:
80/500+/3?/25
To us EVs work best for town driving where the recharge time isn't that big of a deal because it's being charged at home, the Leaf will easily to 80mph and our cost was under $30k before tax discounts about $22k after but our range would be hard pressed to hit 60miles @ 80mph but again it doesn't really mater for our use, for long trips we've got the Prius.
Ideally for a one vehicle family we'd probably have the Prius Prime, 20+ miles for a majority of gas-free in-town driving and 50+ MPG ICE which if they still have a 12gallon tank would equate to:
80/500+/3?/$25 after tax deduction of course only 20+ miles of that 500 would be EV or gas free but at 50+ MPG I don't mind burning a bit of gas :)
Again ideally the Prime would have a bigger battery, more like the Volt's 50+ mile EV range but it is what it is, hopefully by the time we need to replace the old Prius the new Prime will have a longer EV range, but not at the expense of the ICE MPG!

Re: 1200 Mile Trip in the 2018 LEAF

Posted: Mon May 06, 2019 5:01 pm
by SageBrush
OrientExpress wrote:30 - A BEV must cost less than $30K before incentives.

Because ICE have similar incentives ?
Because ICE fuel is the same cost as electricity ?

Re: 1200 Mile Trip in the 2018 LEAF

Posted: Mon May 06, 2019 5:20 pm
by OrientExpress
SageBrush wrote:Because ICE have similar incentives ?
Because ICE fuel is the same cost as electricity ?


Because the average price for a new automobile that can meet the 80/400/30/30 rule is less than $30,000 USD.

Re: 1200 Mile Trip in the 2018 LEAF

Posted: Mon May 06, 2019 5:21 pm
by SageBrush
OrientExpress wrote:
SageBrush wrote:Because ICE have similar incentives ?
Because ICE fuel is the same cost as electricity ?


Because the medium price for a new automobile that can meet the 80/400/30/30 is less than $30,000 USD.

You are evading my questions.

Figures

Re: 1200 Mile Trip in the 2018 LEAF

Posted: Mon May 06, 2019 5:24 pm
by OrientExpress
No I’m answering your questions despite your ignorance of the topic.

Re: 1200 Mile Trip in the 2018 LEAF

Posted: Mon May 06, 2019 5:51 pm
by DougWantsALeaf
My minivan (and previous Optima) only get about 230-250 mile range at 80mph. Not to mention (at least in Illinois) well above state limits.

I would agree the 65 or 70 mph sustained for 300 miles plus buffer would make it a cross country hauler.

E+ on flat ground is only good for about 200-220 at those speeds.

Re: 1200 Mile Trip in the 2018 LEAF

Posted: Mon May 06, 2019 6:03 pm
by OrientExpress
I’ve heard many comments about the range number. Most comments are usually like this “ 400 miles? Preposterous, my[fill in brand or model] only gets [fill in number]. “

The reason the number is 400 is because new mainstream ICE vehicles today have much improved efficiency which allows most cars to achieve a range of between 350 and 450 miles to a tank. It BEVs want parity with ICEs then that’s their number to meet or beat. I have a nine year old GTI that routinely gets 425-450 miles to a tank, so it’s not unreasonable to demand a BEV to do the same.

Re: 1200 Mile Trip in the 2018 LEAF

Posted: Mon May 06, 2019 6:04 pm
by SageBrush
OrientExpress wrote:In the 10 plus years that I have been covering this issue of BEVs being universal replacements for ICE vehicles, there is always the edge cases that do not represent the majority. Driving 600 miles in a BEV per day certainly is one of those.

In what way is 600 miles an edge case ? Too far, or not far enough ?