cwerdna
Gold Member
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Used 2015 vs 2016?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:59 pm

leaftryer wrote:Is driving and parking the vehicle in the sun on very hot days a big problem for battery degredation or is it just a problem to charge the battery while it's very hot?
We get very hot and sunny summer days where I live and work, but I would normally be charging the battery during early morning hours after the battery cooled for several hours.
Even on the hottest days of the year where it may be 110 degrees at 4 or 5 PM and the car would be parked in the sun at work, I think the car would normally be only charging at about 3AM when the garage probably cooled to less than 90 degrees and the car would have been parked with battery cooling down for at least 6 hours.

Is there a reason why you haven't updated your location as requested? I can only guess Vegas from a post you made years ago.

The high pack temperature is likely big the issue but high SoC coupled w/high temps is even worse. L1 and L2 charging it makes it heat up slightly. Those are crazy temps. I've posted comments about Vegas and degradation before many times (e.g. viewtopic.php?f=27&t=19180&p=412699&hilit=vegas#p412699 and viewtopic.php?f=27&t=19906&p=426070&hilit=vegas#p426070).

Table 3 http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/arti ... _batteries has an example for a li-ion variant that may/may not be like the Leaf's.

Again, see my earlier post at viewtopic.php?p=499663#p499663 contrasting crazy hot Phoenix vs. mild Pacific NW.

GerryAZ in Phoenix has commented on his '15 lizard pack vs. '11 at viewtopic.php?f=27&t=24209&p=499021&hilit=bars#p499021. I don't follow his charging habits. http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Batt ... y_Behavior is supposedly the table of what each bar represents.

As I mentioned, it seems like the 30 kWh packs are not holding up well at all. I don't follow closely but from my quick observations and anecdotal reports I hear, they seem to be doing much worse than '15 lizard packs and maybe even worse than 4/2013+ '13 packs.

The pack has a lot of thermal mass and it takes awhile for it to reach/adjust to ambient temp. Your pack temps will likely be crazy high from parking outside at work in the sun at 110 F. To cool to "less than 90" probably means the pack won't even get down to 90 F before the cycle starts again.

To help preserve my battery on hotter days (above 85 F or so) at work, I try to find spots in the slightly underground section of work's parking garage where it sometimes doesn't even rise to 70 F down there on hot days. If they're full, I park at a far away building's underground garage and charge there. It tends to stay below 80 F there, even if it's 95+ outside. I can go there to grab my car at 5 pm and find the pack temp is below 80 F.

When I get home, I leave my car parked outside my garage for many hours before driving it in. It's cooler outside (e.g. in summer, it could get down to say high 50s or mid-60s) than my garage. It's nowhere near enough time to get the pack to reach ambient temp though.

If I wanted it to cool down further, it'd be best to leave it out overnight but I don't wish to do that work days as it might give clues to burglars as to when I leave for work. My house was broken into a few years ago.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

SageBrush
Posts: 773
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Used 2015 vs 2016?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:59 pm

leaftryer wrote:Even on the hottest days of the year where it may be 110 degrees at 4 or 5 PM and the car would be parked in the sun at work, I think the car would normally be only charging at about 3AM when the garage probably cooled to less than 90 degrees and the car would have been parked with battery cooling down for at least 6 hours.

Apparently a good rule of thumb is that degradation is proportional to average annual ambient temperature.
I personally would not buy a LEAF for a climate that has 110F temperatures.

Oh, and by the way, two of the worse things you can do to a LEAF battery: One is to run A/C while the car is stationary. You don't benefit from the cooling that occurs with the car in motion. The other is charging the LEAF in a hot closed garage.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

cwerdna
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Used 2015 vs 2016?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:50 pm

BTW, OP, you never really did answer: What are your daily driving needs in terms of miles? How much city vs. highway? Will you have the ability to charge at your work/destinations?

You've thrown around some numbers but I'm not clear what your actual needs are and charging situation at work, if any, even if it's only 120 volts.

I can't really comment on your numbers since it depends mainly on how fast you drive. See viewtopic.php?t=4295 (unfortunately, all the images are broken so you'll probably need to get the PDFs). I'm not particularly concerned about running the battery low being "bad" for it. However, if you ride around that close to the edge, eventually, you won't be able to make it due to degradation unless you slow down. And, that can only go so far.

My gut feel is that you should go for a 30 kWh '16+ and hope that Nissan's down to 8 bars still == ~70% remaining capacity. If the 30 kWh batteries are in fact crap, you'll probably get 1 to 3 free replacements thanks to its longer capacity warranty. A '15 with its "lizard battery" may not degrade enough for you to receive any replacement under its shorter capacity warranty.

The temps you describe are NOT kind to Leaf's batteries which have no thermal management.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

leaftryer
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:22 pm
Location: Sacramento

Re: Used 2015 vs 2016?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:23 pm

cwerdna wrote:BTW, OP, you never really did answer: What are your daily driving needs in terms of miles? How much city vs. highway? Will you have the ability to charge at your work/destinations?

You've thrown around some numbers but I'm not clear what your actual needs are and charging situation at work, if any, even if it's only 120 volts.

I can't really comment on your numbers since it depends mainly on how fast you drive. See viewtopic.php?t=4295 (unfortunately, all the images are broken so you'll probably need to get the PDFs). I'm not particularly concerned about running the battery low being "bad" for it. However, if you ride around that close to the edge, eventually, you won't be able to make it due to degradation unless you slow down. And, that can only go so far.

My gut feel is that you should go for a 30 kWh '16+ and hope that Nissan's down to 8 bars still == ~70% remaining capacity. If the 30 kWh batteries are in fact crap, you'll probably get 1 to 3 free replacements thanks to its longer capacity warranty. A '15 with its "lizard battery" may not degrade enough for you to receive any replacement under its shorter capacity warranty.

The temps you describe are NOT kind to Leaf's batteries which have no thermal management.


110 is not normal, but it's possible on "hottest days of the year." Maybe 5 days of the year would be that hot
A "typical" summer day is 90-95 degrees max, but there are always several days over 100 every year.
I would be driving about 11 miles to work (5 miles on highway and 6 miles on surface street), another 6 miles during lunch and then 11 miles back home. So, the normal daily commute would be about 28 miles with 12 miles of it on the highway with a/c or heat on the whole way most of the year. Occasionally, I would need to go home for lunch for some reason and would then up commuting at least 44 miles on those days.
It would rarely be over 70 degrees in the morning on the way to work even on the hottest days of the year, but it would be 90-100+ for the drive home. Then the car would usually sit cooling for hours before charging,

I cannot charge at work, so I would always be charging at home in a covered garage during late night and early morning hours.
So, I would never be charging the battery during the hottest part of the day and the car would likely be cooling in the shaded garage for several hours before the charging time kicked in during the night.

LeftieBiker
Posts: 6416
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Used 2015 vs 2016?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:26 pm

Oh, and by the way, two of the worse things you can do to a LEAF battery: One is to run A/C while the car is stationary. You don't benefit from the cooling that occurs with the car in motion.


I think that this would become an issue only if the car were stationary for a long period of time - more than half an hour - and if there were no breeze.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

cwerdna
Gold Member
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Used 2015 vs 2016?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:37 pm

OP: Thanks for updating your location. Off the top of my head, Sacramento area is pretty hot but not as bad as Vegas nor Phoenix.

Food for thought:
For a 30 kWh car: 107 EPA miles * 0.7 = 74. 9 miles - This assumes that 4 bars gone still == about 70% remaining capacity
For a 24 kWh car: 84 EPA miles * 0.85 = 71.4 miles - This assumes that 1 capacity bar done == 15% loss.

So, a 30 kWh car down 4 bars should still have a bit more range than a 24 kWh that's 1 bar down.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

leaftryer
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:22 pm
Location: Sacramento

Re: Used 2015 vs 2016?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:15 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Oh, and by the way, two of the worse things you can do to a LEAF battery: One is to run A/C while the car is stationary. You don't benefit from the cooling that occurs with the car in motion.


I think that this would become an issue only if the car were stationary for a long period of time - more than half an hour - and if there were no breeze.


On hot days, before I start my commute home, I would want to remotely cool down the cabin for 10 minutes as it sits in uncovered employee parking.

webeleafowners
Posts: 305
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:37 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Oct 2015
Location: Okanagan Valley British Columbia

Re: Used 2015 vs 2016?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:00 pm

So what is hot. 7 bars, 8 bars, 9 bars. I have never seen 9 bars but occasionally seen 8. 7 is reasonably common on hot summer days but 6 seems to be the norm. What would be considered as healthy? Does anybody ever see it get to the red?

Thanks in advance.

John.
2015 Smart Electric Drive convertible.
2016 Nissan Leaf SV 30KW
EV only Family...well except for the big diesel motorhome. :shock:

LeftieBiker
Posts: 6416
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Used 2015 vs 2016?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:06 pm

There isn't a consensus, but many of us think that 7 bars is the beginning of "too hot." The red zone is more like the idiot light warning that tells you your car's ICE is already overheated and likely blowing steam.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

cwerdna
Gold Member
Posts: 6790
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Used 2015 vs 2016?

Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:35 am

This guy got his real hot. :)
https://web.archive.org/web/20160903061 ... =9&t=22134

TonyWilliams didn't get it quite as hot from 3:12 of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqd9qbvBoME.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

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