LeftieBiker
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Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Leaf Price / Discount discussion thread

Tue May 08, 2018 8:37 pm

This is important: what are your range needs? Because the 30kwh 2016-2017 Leaf batteries have turned out - with a few exceptions - to be very fast-degrading. Unless you only need 50 or 60 miles of range I suggest you either get a 2015 leaf or lease (don't buy) a 2018 Leaf.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

WetEV
Posts: 2099
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Leaf Price / Discount discussion thread

Wed May 09, 2018 6:00 am

LeftieBiker wrote:This is important: what are your range needs? Because the 30kwh 2016-2017 Leaf batteries have turned out - with a few exceptions - to be very fast-degrading. Unless you only need 50 or 60 miles of range I suggest you either get a 2015 leaf or lease (don't buy) a 2018 Leaf.


Battery warranted for 8 years and 100k miles.

Nissan would save money to fix whatever problem there is with the 30kWh battery. The replacements might not need replacing as fast.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

ayekay
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:14 pm
Delivery Date: 11 Jun 2013
Location: Redmond, WA

Re: Leaf Price / Discount discussion thread

Thu May 10, 2018 12:26 am

Hi,

Curious why you say lease and not buy a 2018 ?

I live in WA state where sales tax exemption end this month and I'm looking to buy a 2018

LeftieBiker wrote:This is important: what are your range needs? Because the 30kwh 2016-2017 Leaf batteries have turned out - with a few exceptions - to be very fast-degrading. Unless you only need 50 or 60 miles of range I suggest you either get a 2015 leaf or lease (don't buy) a 2018 Leaf.

LeftieBiker
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Re: Leaf Price / Discount discussion thread

Thu May 10, 2018 2:49 am

The 2018 Leaf uses a 40kwh battery pack that is disturbingly similar to the terrible 30kwh pack: it has no active thermal management system except a battery heater, has even less passive cooling because of more tightly packed cells, and the chemistry used seems to be designed for energy density rather than thermal resistance. It will be a miracle if this pack holds up well over time, especially in hotter climates.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

WetEV
Posts: 2099
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
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Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Leaf Price / Discount discussion thread

Thu May 10, 2018 7:54 am

LeftieBiker wrote:The 2018 Leaf uses a 40kwh battery pack that is disturbingly similar to the terrible 30kwh pack: it has no active thermal management system except a battery heater, has even less passive cooling because of more tightly packed cells, and the chemistry used seems to be designed for energy density rather than thermal resistance. It will be a miracle if this pack holds up well over time, especially in hotter climates.


FUD.

The small difference in cooling between the 30kWh pack and the 24kWh pack don't explain the shorter life of the 30kWh pack, and doesn't say anything useful about the likely life of the 40kWh pack.

Nissan has made a technical error of some sort with the 30kWh pack. While that doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies about any Nissan battery pack doing well, I'm still happier with a pack that doesn't catch fire and burn, like Teslas for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0kjI08n4fg
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

LeftieBiker
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Re: Leaf Price / Discount discussion thread

Thu May 10, 2018 12:13 pm

You keep misusing the term "FUD." I'm trying to help someone not make a mistake, possibly a bad mistake, and I have no ulterior motive for doing so. You, OTOH, seem determined to encourage people to take a big chance, for no good reason.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

WetEV
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Re: Leaf Price / Discount discussion thread

Thu May 10, 2018 2:35 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:You keep misusing the term "FUD." I'm trying to help someone not make a mistake, possibly a bad mistake, and I have no ulterior motive for doing so. You, OTOH, seem determined to encourage people to take a big chance, for no good reason.


Fear Uncertainty and Doubt.

There are a lot of people throwing FUD for lots of reasons. You are one of them, at least in my NHO. I don't care why.

"Big mistake"? Do explain. Nissan has a battery capacity warranty for "96 months or 100,000 miles". While a car only lasting 8 years and 100,000 miles might not be great, it is not a big mistake to buy such a car.

Buying a car that catches fire, on the other hand, might be a big mistake.

Image

Image
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Gold Member
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Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: Leaf Price / Discount discussion thread

Thu May 10, 2018 2:50 pm

WetEV wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:You keep misusing the term "FUD." I'm trying to help someone not make a mistake, possibly a bad mistake, and I have no ulterior motive for doing so. You, OTOH, seem determined to encourage people to take a big chance, for no good reason.


Fear Uncertainty and Doubt.

There are a lot of people throwing FUD for lots of reasons. You are one of them, at least in my NHO. I don't care why.

"Big mistake"? Do explain. Nissan has a battery capacity warranty for "96 months or 100,000 miles". While a car only lasting 8 years and 100,000 miles might not be great, it is not a big mistake to buy such a car.

Buying a car that catches fire, on the other hand, might be a big mistake.



You missed a picture:
Image

But you're right, it's not a mistake to get the 2018 leaf .... yet. I'm hopeful that Nissan got their battery life issues under control ... maybe being a bit naive, but let's wait and see until after the summer.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
Date - Miles / GIDs:
May '17 - 7300 mi / 363
Feb '18 - 20.5k mi / 333
... awaiting firmware update

LeftieBiker
Posts: 8910
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Re: Leaf Price / Discount discussion thread

Thu May 10, 2018 2:55 pm

Buying a Leaf with an EPA range of 150 miles because you need most of that range is a big mistake, when the car is likely to lose much of it. Sure, Nissan will replace the battery when the car gets to ~90 miles EPA range, but that isn't much comfort to someone who needs 100, and it's looking like Nissan may be using 80% capacity refurbished packs in a few years - sooner for the 30kwh packs. But you know all of this, yet you continue to sing Nissan's praises. The Leaf is a good car to lease, but with the exception of some 2013-2015 cars, it is not a good car to buy. So I suggest you save the "FUD" accusations for people who are trying to gain from bad-mouthing the cars. I'm telling people it's ok to lease them if they have modest range needs. I'm giving them balanced info, and you're acting like a Nissan salescritter.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 2493
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Leaf Price / Discount discussion thread

Thu May 10, 2018 4:41 pm

IMHO @Leftiebiker is giving out reasonable advice.

I suppose I only diverge in saying that if a person is pretty sure that the allowed lease miles and close to fully degraded (per warranty) battery in their climate (quite a mouthful) is enough range then a purchase is better value than a lease since you get about 8/3 times the use for less than 2x the price. And that presumes the worse case of the purchased car having zero value after 8 years. The arithmetic works out to the lease being 4/3 times more expensive for that case.

Not being eligible for the full federal tax credit might swing things around though, and in 8 years a lot can change in the car marketplace and one's personal situation.

---
I am bothered by our newbie education of "required range." We should be pointing out
1. Degradation
2. Climate effects on range
3. Reasonable reserve. It is just not reasonable to expect people to drive the battery down to turtle.
4. Driving habits

I use the following:
1. 40%
2. 25%
3. 10%
4. 0% (EPA type driver)

Starting from 150 mi, adequate range works out to ~ 40 miles for an owner who has no alternative charging or transportation choices.
Last edited by SageBrush on Thu May 10, 2018 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
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2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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