Agonizing over buying this '12 Leaf w/ Mar 2017 Battery

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outsmartbullet

New member
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May 4, 2017
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2
Hi Folks,
I've been agonizing over whether to buy a particular Leaf.

I still have the electrician scheduled on Thursday to wire in the 14-50 plug, I still have the JuiceBox Pro 40 which I can return to Amazon for $20. I do recognize that these are major overkill for the 3.3kw charger, but I figured I'd invest and be ready for a faster-charging car for the future.

I live in Phoenix.
I have an assigned space in a garage well out of the sun, for what it's worth.

My round trip commute is 42 miles which on a good day puts me at 75mph but, more than usually, averages half that even in the HOV lane as there are slowdowns at the interchanges and often things just get backed up a bit. On average, the HOV lane on my motorcycle saves me about 20 minutes a day. Very soon it will be too hot for me to ride with proper safety gear.

I currently have a 2011 Sonata GLS with 64K miles that my coworker would happily buy for $7500. It still has 35k / 3 years left on the powertrain

The leaf in question is a 38k 2012 SL (backup cam, heated seats, 12v Solar Panel) with minor scratches, otherwise clean, and I verified received a spankin' new battery in March of this year.

The price is $8000 firm, and I have test driven it. I couldn't get Leafspy to work, but I was able to verify that it was an entirely new battery by calling the Nissan dealer. Just believe me when I tell you the guy won't budge a dollar on the price.

My big decision point is, how many years can I expect to get to work and back without having to charge at work? There are two-hours-free chargers in my work garage, but taking 20 minutes out of my day to unplug the car is a pain in the butt.

I'm really agonizing whether to give up my so-far-reliable car for one that might be unable to make my commute in four years. I've never had any major mechanical trouble with my Sonata.
I do expect it's a Lizard battery because of how recently it was replaced.

I estimate I'll save $800 a year in gas/registration/oil changes but if anything goes majorly wrong on the Leaf I'm totally out of pocket.

What do you think? How many years could I make my 42 mile highway commute without having to charge during the daytime?
 
I'd say several years, although you may not be comfortable doing 75MPH by the end of the third year. You might want to consider rear wheel covers at some point, to reduce drag at higher speeds. This is assuming that the pack doesn't experience the worst of your local climate while charging.
 
Thank you for your thoughts. It'd have rough going during the daily commute in 105-115 degree weather, three days a week, three months a year, but it would at least be able to charge overnight during the 11-5AM 6c/kwh super-off peak hours.

At work it's parked in total shade, and at home it would get shade most hours of the day.
 
Charging at work, even at 120 volts all day would extend the useful life of the car.

But yeah, my wild guess is that w/o charging at work at all, you could probably do that commute for another 3-5 years, maybe 6. You'll need to slow down as the battery gets worse.

Unfortunately, you can't adjust the pre-condition temp on the '12, AFAIK (I think it got added on the '13). Not sure if setting the precondition timer or pre-heating will result in the cabin being cooled or heated if it's hot in the cabin. If it will cool it, then you might want to precondition while on "shore" power (still connected to a 208/240 volt L2 EVSE) when it's hot out. That way, you use less juice from the battery trying to cool the cabin down.
 
I made my 52-mile round trip commute with about 21 miles each way on the freeway , mostly in the HOV lane on I-17 with a mile or so on I-10 west of I-17 even when the 2011 was down to 8 capacity bars (with normal A/C use) before Nissan replaced the battery. The "lizard" battery in the 2015 is down to 11 capacity bars in 27 months and 40k miles, but this is much better than the original (8 bars in about 26 months and 30k miles) and replacement (11 bars in about 13 months and 20k miles) batteries in the 2011. Since your commute is 10 miles less than mine (but your average speed may be a bit higher), I am sure you can make your commute without issue and without charging at work for several years (at least 4 years and probably longer). If you could charge at 120-volts for a few hours during the day, you could probably make your commute for 8 or 10 years. The 2011/2012 models have proven reliable, but components for the EV system are expensive if they do fail. The climate control (both timer and remote activation) is preset for 77 degrees F (25 degrees C) so pre cooling when plugged in works great during the hotter months and pre heating works great in the colder months. You may get heat instead of cool on relatively cool mornings in the spring and fall, but your really don't need it then. The telematics unit needs to be upgraded if you want to use remote climate control and other EV Connect (CarWings) functions. Cost is $200 if it has not already been done.
 
I have a similar issue, except we're talking about a 2011. Found it at a dealership that has had it for three years (South Dakota is not a hotspot for EV), but it had substantial degradation on the battery. Dealership thinks it can get Nissan to replace with the newest version for the car, but wondering if anyone has had something similar and what to expect in range. Most importantly, is this a decent deal (sits around 8K with about 23K miles)?

Edit: suppose I should put some driving use down: Daily commute car in Minnesota, approximately 19 miles RT five days/week, plus some general around town running. Also occasionally to another local town about 45 miles away, with overnight stay and access to 120V. It's an SL model.
 
I think any 2011/2012 Leaf with a "new" (or candidate for "new") lizard battery pack are a steal! I'm so convinced I wrote an article (http://tinyurl.com/ybomvazb) about my experience.
 
Parrothead said:
I have a similar issue, except we're talking about a 2011. Found it at a dealership that has had it for three years (South Dakota is not a hotspot for EV), but it had substantial degradation on the battery. Dealership thinks it can get Nissan to replace with the newest version for the car, but wondering if anyone has had something similar and what to expect in range. Most importantly, is this a decent deal (sits around 8K with about 23K miles)?

Edit: suppose I should put some driving use down: Daily commute car in Minnesota, approximately 19 miles RT five days/week, plus some general around town running. Also occasionally to another local town about 45 miles away, with overnight stay and access to 120V. It's an SL model.

If dealer gets new battery installed and provides written documentation, then it should be a good car (if it has the cold weather package). The price is too high without documentation of new battery. I would be concerned about a 2011 for your climate if it does not have the cold weather package. Sitting on a dealer lot for 3 years in South Dakota would probably ruin the battery in a 2011 that does not have the cold weather package because the battery heater (does not exist without cold weather package) needs to cycle on when the battery temperature gets down near 0 degrees F (not sure of exact threshold temperature). If the car has heated seats, steering wheel, and mirrors, then it has the cold weather package and has a battery heater (only late production 2011 LEAFs have the cold weather package). Your short commute makes you a good candidate to take advantage of a LEAF with a deteriorated battery if you can find one at a low price. If you get a 2011 or 2012, you will probably need a way to disable the HVAC heating element to allow ventilation and defrost without excessive power consumption.
 
GerryAZ said:
Sitting on a dealer lot for 3 years in South Dakota would probably ruin the battery in a 2011 that does not have the cold weather package because the battery heater (does not exist without cold weather package) needs to cycle on when the battery temperature gets down near 0 degrees F (not sure of exact threshold temperature).

Thanks for the info...I didn't know about the cold weather package piece. I'm guessing the pack will be replaced with the latest version. The question then becomes, will that new pack include the heating capability? There is no cold weather package (seats, wheel, mirrors), but is the battery heater dependent on that particular part of the system?
 
Parrothead said:
GerryAZ said:
Sitting on a dealer lot for 3 years in South Dakota would probably ruin the battery in a 2011 that does not have the cold weather package because the battery heater (does not exist without cold weather package) needs to cycle on when the battery temperature gets down near 0 degrees F (not sure of exact threshold temperature).

Thanks for the info...I didn't know about the cold weather package piece. I'm guessing the pack will be replaced with the latest version. The question then becomes, will that new pack include the heating capability? There is no cold weather package (seats, wheel, mirrors), but is the battery heater dependent on that particular part of the system?

There is a different part numbers for 2011 replacement batteries depending upon whether the car has the cold weather package so the replacement battery would not have the heater if the car does not have the package.
 
GerryAZ said:
Parrothead said:
GerryAZ said:
Sitting on a dealer lot for 3 years in South Dakota would probably ruin the battery in a 2011 that does not have the cold weather package because the battery heater (does not exist without cold weather package) needs to cycle on when the battery temperature gets down near 0 degrees F (not sure of exact threshold temperature).

Thanks for the info...I didn't know about the cold weather package piece. I'm guessing the pack will be replaced with the latest version. The question then becomes, will that new pack include the heating capability? There is no cold weather package (seats, wheel, mirrors), but is the battery heater dependent on that particular part of the system?

There are different part numbers for 2011 replacement batteries depending upon whether the car has the cold weather package so the replacement battery would not have the heater if the car does not have the package.
 
There are different part numbers for 2011 replacement batteries depending upon whether the car has the cold weather package so the replacement battery would not have the heater if the car does not have the package.

But are they still making packs with no heaters? Are the heaters added last, and then get left off for 2011 cars?
 
Latest is that Nissan will replace the pack and the dealership will tack a little onto the price to pay for their portion of the replacement. Price would end up around 8500, not including tax and license. After reading about others who didn't have the cold weather package, it makes me wonder if this is the appropriate vehicle or if I should wait on a newer vehicle this fall. As we all well know in the northern tier of states, and our Canadian neighbors, winter gets a bit nippy around here.
 
Parrothead said:
Latest is that Nissan will replace the pack and the dealership will tack a little onto the price to pay for their portion of the replacement. Price would end up around 8500, not including tax and license. After reading about others who didn't have the cold weather package, it makes me wonder if this is the appropriate vehicle or if I should wait on a newer vehicle this fall. As we all well know in the northern tier of states, and our Canadian neighbors, winter gets a bit nippy around here.
If you park inside an attached, insulated garage, you should be fine. It takes many hours for a battery to cool. Unless you park outside at both work and home, the battery should stay moderately warmer than ambient. That said, I specifically drain the battery down in my 2011 when temps get close to zero (not hard to do) and then recharge at 12 amps and 120V overnight for my 8 mi RT commute, timing the charging so that the battery is always charging. I've seen with LeafSpy that this helps a small amount, but it might not be the case at -10-20F. Given a choice today, I'd opt for the CW package just for the piece of mind. For longer commutes, you'd definitely need 240 V charging. Preheating with a 2011 isn't the greatest, especially if parked outside.
 
Since the car does not have the cold weather package, it does not have the controls/programming to manage a battery heater. It would probably be OK if you always park in an attached, insulated garage during cold nights. Preheat works fine with L2 charging, but it takes longer to heat water and then air so you need to have it start an hour before you want to leave. The dry heater in 2013 or later models is much faster.
 
Reddy said:
I've seen with LeafSpy that this helps a small amount, but it might not be the case at -10-20F. Given a choice today, I'd opt for the CW package just for the piece of mind. For longer commutes, you'd definitely need 240 V charging. Preheating with a 2011 isn't the greatest, especially if parked outside.

Yeah, the biggest issue is that it would never be inside, always outside. While it may not get down to -20 or -30 F often, there was a stretch a couple years ago when it never got above -10 for two weeks. Not optimal. May just get a beater ICE for the time being, sell one of the SUVs, hold onto the other so we can build up cash and wait for the right time and range.
 
My current commute is approximately 48 miles roundtrip on I-10/202, and I was able to do that commute with my 2011 Leaf, with 4 bar loss (4BL). I now have a new Lizard battery, so the commute is much more comfortable. I have no workplace charging, so the problem with the Leaf (at 4 bar loss) is that the commute home is uncomfortable, as you have to control your speed to preserve battery - and that sometimes means staying out of the HOV lane. The A/C is very efficient, so even with 110-115 degree heat on occasion, range isn't significantly affected. The heater was a much bigger problem, as it draws a lot more power on my 2011, as it is a resistive element.

With a 4BL battery, any deviation from your normal route (ie, Doctor's appointment, Dentist appointment) is stressful, as you have to find (and make time for) charging to make it home. I recommend that you try to identify charging stations for your commute home, if necessary. For instance, I knew where the 'reliable' DC chargers were, and would often use them if I had a day that required more range.
 
Parrothead said:
Reddy said:
I've seen with LeafSpy that this helps a small amount, but it might not be the case at -10-20F. Given a choice today, I'd opt for the CW package just for the piece of mind. For longer commutes, you'd definitely need 240 V charging. Preheating with a 2011 isn't the greatest, especially if parked outside.

Yeah, the biggest issue is that it would never be inside, always outside. While it may not get down to -20 or -30 F often, there was a stretch a couple years ago when it never got above -10 for two weeks. Not optimal. May just get a beater ICE for the time being, sell one of the SUVs, hold onto the other so we can build up cash and wait for the right time and range.
Ok, in this situation, I would DEFINITELY NOT purchase a 2011, and probably not even the 2012. Get the 6 KW charger so you can preheat faster. Extreme cold is not easy on any mechanical device, including gasoline engines, and is especially difficult on people and batteries. If you can keep the battery above 32F, you'll get better performance. I had zero temperature bars and 0F one day last winter and my 2011 SL performed perfectly, with heat cranked using 5 KW, but only for about 20 mi (8 mi commute and a couple of errands). It was still much easier and more enjoyable than my old ICE that never warms up on my short in-town trips.
 
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