leaftryer
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:22 pm
Location: Sacramento

Used 2015 vs 2016?

Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:51 pm

What's a better used car value?

Obviously, 2015s can be purchased for less than 2016s and they have an advantage that you can find 2015 SVs with the LED headlight package with automatic headlamps. If you want automatic headlamps on a 2016, you have no choice but to get an SL.
I thought of just leaving the lights on day and night on a 2016 SV (assuming the lights at least turn off automatically), but the standard headlamps draw much more power than LEDs so it would be another battery drain range shortner.
2015s also have the Lizard battery. Do only 2016s have the 8 year degredation warranty?.
So, the only advantage of a 2016 is getting the bigger battery, but that is a major advantage and the extra 15-20 miles range would make using the car less stressful and make it last longer because I wouldn't drain the batter below 20% as often with the larger battery.

I don't like black leather seats in the summer. I wouldn't mind light gray or beige leather as much, but black leather would be the only choice available if I get a 2016 SL. It will probably be OK if I can remotely cool the vehicle interior while it isn't charging. Can NissanConnect turn on the a/c remotely via a smartphone app while the car isn't connected to a charging station? Is it the same on both 2015s and 2016s?

There are very few used 2016s available now and I see 3 out of 4 used 2015s and 2016s listed for sale online are base S models.
I think if I wait another 6 months, the selection use used 2016s will be much better since 24 month lease returns on 2016s should be hitting dealer lots in large numbers starting around January.

cwerdna
Gold Member
Posts: 6794
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Used 2015 vs 2016?

Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:17 pm

Can you update your location info via your user name in the upper right > User Control Panel > Profile tab? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

What are your daily driving needs in terms of miles? How much city vs. highway? Will you have the ability to charge at your work/destinations?

I wouldn't be concerned about the lack of automatic headlights. I also wouldn't be concerned about headlight power consumption. That is minimal compared to what's needed to propel the car. However, the halogen headlights are MUCH worse than the LEDs. (I leased a car w/QC + LED headlight package. My current one doesn't have that.)

leaftryer wrote:2015s also have the Lizard battery. Do only 2016s have the 8 year degredation warranty?.

Only the 30 kWh models of the 2016 (SV, SL and quietly introduced near the end "S 30" (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/110 ... gher-price)) have the 8 year/100K mile degradation warranty. 24 kWh Leafs only have the 5 year/60K degradation warranty.

leaftryer wrote:So, the only advantage of a 2016 is getting the bigger battery, but that is a major advantage and the extra 15-20 miles range would make using the car less stressful and make it last longer because I wouldn't drain the batter below 20% as often with the larger battery.

For whatever reason, the 30 kWh batteries don't seem to be holding up well in terms of capacity loss: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=23606.

Assuming Nissan didn't screw with the % needed to trigger the 4th capacity bar going away, that coupled w/the 8 year/100K capacity warranty might be a good thing. You might have a good chance of getting a free replacement or two.
leaftryer wrote:I don't like black leather seats in the summer. I wouldn't mind light gray or beige leather as much, but black leather would be the only choice available if I get a 2016 SL.

Not specific to '16 SL. Ever since '13 SL, all SL from that point on only came in black leather. Prior to model year '13, leather and dark interiors were not available.
leaftryer wrote:It will probably be OK if I can remotely cool the vehicle interior while it isn't charging. Can NissanConnect turn on the a/c remotely via a smartphone app while the car isn't connected to a charging station? Is it the same on both 2015s and 2016s?

Yes.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

leaftryer
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:22 pm
Location: Sacramento

Re: Used 2015 vs 2016?

Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:06 pm

Too bad the degradation problem still isn't really solved. At least the 30kWh warranty lets you get a replacement after it drops under 70% in less than 8 years, but I would rather the battery just stay over 90% long term. 70% of a 100 mile range (that's really more like less than 80 miles if you drive it like a normal car on the highway and don't turn off the A/C and heat to squeeze out extras miles while you sweat or shiver in discomfort) gets restrictive really fast.
Since nobody wants the stress of driving the car down to the last few miles of range (and it's bad for the battery anyway), you can cut another 10 miles off of that number. 70% of 80 miles is 56 miles of which I would really only want to actually use 46 to not have range anxiety.

Even before any degradation starts, I would only expect around 80 miles on maximum highway range out of the 30kwh battery of which I would want to use under 70 to have a comfortable cushion when I get home. So, with 30kwh battery I would need to stay within 35 miles of home before degradation and 23 miles from home after degradation or I would have to go out of my way and wait around to use public charging stations to make it back home comfortably.
For this, dealers want $18 to $20K for used 2016 SVs and SLs. Still seems like too much for such a limited range vehicle.
Price drops quite a bit when looking at 2014 and 2015s (need at least a 2015 to be guaranteed a lizard battery), but then I would only have the choice of older 24Khw batteries that are almost surely starting to lose range.
Last edited by leaftryer on Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cwerdna
Gold Member
Posts: 6794
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Used 2015 vs 2016?

Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:19 pm

leaftryer wrote:Too bad the degradation problem still isn't really solved. At least the 30kWh warranty lets you get a replacement after it drops under 70% in less than 8 years,

We have no idea if it is still roughly 70% remaining == 4 bars gone. It might be a higher or lower % remaining. All we know is in the warranty booklet (https://owners.nissanusa.com/content/te ... ooklet.pdf) has verbiage about them warrantying it to be at or above 9 bars within the warranty period.

I don't think the degradation problem will ever be solved. Li-ion batteries degrade but there are numerous factors (e.g. calendar loss, temperature, how much cycling, etc.)

EPA range rating of 30 kWh Leafs is 107 miles. Besides Teslas and the 238-mile Bolt, there are some other EVs w/a bit over 107 miles of range on the EPA test. And, next gen Leaf is being announced in September.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

leaftryer
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:22 pm
Location: Sacramento

Re: Used 2015 vs 2016?

Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:29 pm

cwerdna wrote:
leaftryer wrote:Too bad the degradation problem still isn't really solved. At least the 30kWh warranty lets you get a replacement after it drops under 70% in less than 8 years,

We have no idea if it is still roughly 70% remaining == 4 bars gone. It might be a higher or lower % remaining. All we know is in the warranty booklet (https://owners.nissanusa.com/content/te ... ooklet.pdf) has verbiage about them warrantying it to be at or above 9 bars within the warranty period.

I don't think the degradation problem will ever be solved. Li-ion batteries degrade but there are numerous factors (e.g. calendar loss, temperature, how much cycling, etc.)

EPA range rating of 30 kWh Leafs is 107 miles. Besides Teslas and the 238-mile Bolt, there are some other EVs w/a bit over 107 miles of range on the EPA test. And, next gen Leaf is being announced in September.


Yes, I know the battery has to degrade some amount as they are used. All batteries lose capacity over time including the batteries in other EVs.
The issue is that it seems the Leaf batteries are degrading too much too fast compared to other EV batteries of similar age and number of charge cycles. Bigger batteries like the ones in the Bolt will also have fewer charge cycles when driven the same amount as a Leaf.
The Bolt has it's own issues such as really bad front seats, plus there aren't many used ones on the market.

cwerdna
Gold Member
Posts: 6794
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Used 2015 vs 2016?

Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:41 pm

leaftryer wrote:The issue is that it seems the Leaf batteries are degrading too much too fast compared to other EV batteries of similar age and number of charge cycles.

Well, the biggest factor is climate. As I pointed to at viewtopic.php?p=499086#p499086, is the best I know of, at 1st capacity bar gone on a '13 at 92.7K miles.

The opposite is viewtopic.php?p=473995#p473995 for someone in Phoenix. My used '13 Leaf that I bought in July 2015 was built the same month as that guy, 5/13. I still have all 12 bars but with SOH between 85 and 86% and Hx seemingly around 83.xx and 84.xx%, I'm getting real close to losing a bar now at 46K miles. I only wish my climate were as mild as the 1st guy.

I don't know what's going on w/the 30 kWh early capacity losses. Not sure if there's an inherent problem or some folks have defective batteries or only ones built within a certain time range have that issue.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

RonDawg
Posts: 2611
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:46 am
Delivery Date: 11 Jan 2013
Leaf Number: 027089
Location: SoCal

Re: Used 2015 vs 2016?

Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:22 pm

leaftryer wrote:I thought of just leaving the lights on day and night on a 2016 SV (assuming the lights at least turn off automatically), but the standard headlamps draw much more power than LEDs so it would be another battery drain range shortner.


Unless things changed since my 2012 Leaf, the non-auto headlights do not shut off when you turn the car off. When you open the door, you will get a chime if you left the lights on.
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar on 11/21/2015 at 26,435 miles.
Lease returned on 12/23/2015. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F
Now driving a 2015 VW eGolf SEL

leaftryer
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:22 pm
Location: Sacramento

Re: Used 2015 vs 2016?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:45 am

RonDawg wrote:
leaftryer wrote:I thought of just leaving the lights on day and night on a 2016 SV (assuming the lights at least turn off automatically), but the standard headlamps draw much more power than LEDs so it would be another battery drain range shortner.


Unless things changed since my 2012 Leaf, the non-auto headlights do not shut off when you turn the car off. When you open the door, you will get a chime if you left the lights on.


Too bad.
Is there any reason an aftermarket automatic headlamp switch can't be added to an SV or is the wiring for the lights non-standard in a way to make installing something like the kit below not work?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA1d-QEwCVs

leaftryer
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:22 pm
Location: Sacramento

Re: Used 2015 vs 2016?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:55 am

cwerdna wrote:
leaftryer wrote:The issue is that it seems the Leaf batteries are degrading too much too fast compared to other EV batteries of similar age and number of charge cycles.

Well, the biggest factor is climate. As I pointed to at viewtopic.php?p=499086#p499086, is the best I know of, at 1st capacity bar gone on a '13 at 92.7K miles.

The opposite is viewtopic.php?p=473995#p473995 for someone in Phoenix. My used '13 Leaf that I bought in July 2015 was built the same month as that guy, 5/13. I still have all 12 bars but with SOH between 85 and 86% and Hx seemingly around 83.xx and 84.xx%, I'm getting real close to losing a bar now at 46K miles. I only wish my climate were as mild as the 1st guy.

I don't know what's going on w/the 30 kWh early capacity losses. Not sure if there's an inherent problem or some folks have defective batteries or only ones built within a certain time range have that issue.


Is driving and parking the vehicle in the sun on very hot days a big problem for battery degredation or is it just a problem to charge the battery while it's very hot?
We get very hot and sunny summer days where I live and work, but I would normally be charging the battery during early morning hours after the battery cooled for several hours.
Even on the hottest days of the year where it may be 110 degrees at 4 or 5 PM and the car would be parked in the sun at work, I think the car would normally be only charging at about 3AM when the garage probably cooled to less than 90 degrees and the car would have been parked with battery cooling down for at least 6 hours.

LeftieBiker
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Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Used 2015 vs 2016?

Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:04 pm

You can ignore air temp and focus on pack temp. The air temp certainly affects the pack's temperature, but there is a considerable lag between them. IOW, parking in the hot sun will warm the pack, but not instantly.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

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