leafwing
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:47 pm
Delivery Date: 24 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 0573
Location: Plano, TX

Re: Nissan buys back my Leaf

Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:19 pm

kubel wrote:
TomT wrote:It is rather amazing that the Leaf is the only modern EV out there without TMS, and Nissan sees no problem with that... Without TMS, Nissan will never sell me another EV.


I'm not picking on you or anyone else, but I think most early adopters knew what a lack of a thermal management system would result in for those in extreme climates. Knowing the risks, and knowing that there was a clear lack of a range warranty at the time, most of us bought the car anyway, and in many ways were in denial that anything would happen.


Yes you are.
Mark Perry assured us, that is an ex Nissan's exec., that the lack of an active TMS would have no effect on the battery. We believed what we were told.
Lost the first capacity bar on 7/04/2012.
Lost the second bar on 6/26/2013.
Lost the third bar on 6/17/2014.
Lost the Fourth Capacity bar on 6/7/2015.

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mikeEmike
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:13 am
Location: San Fernando Valley

Re: Nissan buys back my Leaf

Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:01 pm

leafwing wrote:Mark Perry assured us, that is an ex Nissan's exec., that the lack of an active TMS would have no effect on the battery. We believed what we were told.

Not everyone believed this. I certainly don't take an executive's word on a technical issue such as this, especially when there was no warranty at that time to back it up. If you want real assurance, get it in writing. Talk is cheap.

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
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Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Nissan buys back my Leaf

Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:25 pm

TomT wrote:Perhaps, but I also don't think anyone considered Los Angeles to be an "extreme climate..." Nor was Nissan honest or forthright about the real affects of heat on the pack, or on pack degradation in general... I expected pack degradation but I never expected 20% in my environs in less than two years... Based on what we were told by Nissan, I was expecting 20 percent at the end of four years...

Clearly, a lack of TMS has turned out to be a gigantic engineering mistake.

kubel wrote:
TomT wrote:It is rather amazing that the Leaf is the only modern EV out there without TMS, and Nissan sees no problem with that... Without TMS, Nissan will never sell me another EV.
I'm not picking on you or anyone else, but I think most early adopters knew what a lack of a thermal management system would result in for those in extreme climates. Knowing the risks, and knowing that there was a clear lack of a range warranty at the time, most of us bought the car anyway, and in many ways were in denial that anything would happen.



Tom; i have to disagree...and agree with you. I dont want the complexity or cost of TMS. having gone thru the Focus EV training while working at Ford, it is a considerable amount of added expense and in a 23 kwh pack for minimal gain.

But I do agree that we were led to believe only extreme climates would be significantly affected. I expected minor heat related degradation nearly everywhere including where I live because we do hit the 90's and better a dozen times a year but nothing I would see for years. Phoenix? ya, ok. but most of LA only hits the mid to upper 90's occasionally.

80's? heck nearly EVERYWHERE gets that
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 13001 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 102ish% kwh 28.1 QCs 112
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Volusiano
Posts: 1461
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:41 pm
Delivery Date: 03 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Nissan buys back my Leaf

Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:30 pm

LEAFfan wrote:I, OTH, don't want the added complexity, loss of BC, cost, and weight of a TMS. It really wouldn't help much here anyway since the car needs to be plugged in if you don't want capacity loss. When it sits all day in a 140F parking lot, a TMS isn't going to help much.
Yes, TMS would help a lot even if your car is parked out in the AZ heat all day at work anyway because in the Volt, for example:

1. If the battery still has >75% of its SOC, even if parked while unplugged, TMS is going to work to keep the battery cool if the internal battery temperature exceeds 86F.
2. Batteries designed with TMS is much better insulated than batteries that rely on ambient cooling, just because you don't want to insulate the later and trap the heat in. So before leaving for work, the TMS battery is already cooled to ideal temperature while plugged in.
3. While driving to work, any heat generated internally is removed immediately so that there's no heat build up when arriving at work.
4. Parking at work, still in the ideal temperature range in the beginning, the well insulated can stay cool for a long time before its INTERNAL temperature reaches 86F, at which point the TMS will kick in if SOC is >75%.
5. Even if the SOC is less than 75% after the first leg of the trip to work, and TMS doesn't kick in, it may still take more than half a day before the INTERNAL temperature of the well insulated battery reaches 86F and higher. And by around that time, it's already almost if not time to go home, and TMS will kick in as soon as the car is turned on to cool the battery down to as low as 72F on the way home.

If you argue that more often than not, one will not be at 75% SOC by the time one gets to work, so TMS will not kick in while parked unplugged. Then sure, but at least one has the option on a very hot day to use the ICE on the way to work to preserve the SOC to > 75% so TMS can spring into action while parked in the sun. You'd only have to do this a few times to determine how much average energy TMS will need while the car is parked. Once this is known, you can factor it in to make the most use of the battery capacity for your commute and still have enough to keep TMS running while parked. Sure, this may require the use of some gas up front to save this energy for the TMS. But at least you have that choice if you choose to use it that way.

LEAFfan wrote:The best solution, at least in hot climates is a different chemistry (sulfer added) or a different storage device such as the SC (Super Capacitor) that UCLA is working on.
Why are we even mentioning a non-existing future solution to solve a current existing issue? Even if it's the best solution, it's a non-existing solution in light of the discussion about TMS here.

Of course NOBODY wants the complexity and added cost of TMS if they can help it. But today they can't help it, and until then, the best current solution is TMS, even if you view it as a necessary evil.

When a heat-resistant battery solution becomes a reality, I'll be the first in line to ditch my TMS EV to buy a non-TMS heat-resistant EV. But I'm not going to buy a non-TMS EV TODAY that doesn't have a heat-resistant battery, which is exactly what the LEAF is today.

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Nubo
Posts: 4249
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Location: Vallejo, CA

Re: Nissan buys back my Leaf

Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:29 pm

LEAFfan wrote:I, OTH, don't want the added complexity, loss of BC, cost, and weight of a TMS. It really wouldn't help much here anyway since the car needs to be plugged in if you don't want capacity loss. When it sits all day in a 140F parking lot, a TMS isn't going to help much. The best solution, at least in hot climates is a different chemistry (sulfer added) or a different storage device such as the SC (Super Capacitor) that UCLA is working on.


+1. Active TMS has its own drawbacks. We saw what happened with Broder-gate; the wailing and gnashing of teeth that a car would lose range "just sitting". Even if it does help preserve existing chemistry, It's not a user-friendly solution. Consumes too much energy and If you don't plug in it consumes too much range.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

Stoaty
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Leaf Number: 3871
Location: West Los Angeles

Re: Nissan buys back my Leaf

Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:44 pm

TomT wrote:Perhaps, but I also don't think anyone considered Los Angeles to be an "extreme climate..." Nor was Nissan honest or forthright about the real affects of heat on the pack, or on pack degradation in general... I expected pack degradation but I never expected 20% in my environs in less than two years... Based on what we were told by Nissan, I was expecting 20 percent at the end of four years...

Clearly, a lack of TMS has turned out to be a gigantic engineering mistake.

Not sure I agree with you. While I live in West Los Angeles, my Leaf is parked in the sun in Canoga Park for 40 hours a week. I haven't lost any capacity bars, and my 100% charge today was 254 Gids (90.4% of capacity retained) after 22 months and 17,000 miles. There isn't a huge difference in the predicted rate of capacity loss between Van Nuys and Santa Monica based on the Battery Aging Model. What is puzzling to me is why some people such as yourself have lost 2 capacity bars, while others in fairly similar environments haven't lost any. Your car may be an outlier in terms of the rate of capacity loss for your area. It would be good to know the rate of capacity loss in the greater Los Angeles area. Perhaps there are other factors not accounted for (QC, leaving Leaf at 100% for longer period of time, manufacturing problem, phase of the moon, etc.).
Lifetime 5.5 m/kWh (Dash) over 61,000 miles / 72 months
Capacity Loss Predicted - 28.4% Actual - 31.3%
Leaf Spy Manual
Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet

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Kataphn
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:57 am
Delivery Date: 13 Jun 2013
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Nissan buys back my Leaf

Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:40 pm

It would be good to know the rate of capacity loss in the greater Los Angeles area. Perhaps there are other factors not accounted for (QC, leaving Leaf at 100% for longer period of time, manufacturing problem, phase of the moon, etc.).


We live about half way between the beach and downtown LA just south of the 10 freeway and just east of Baldwin Hills, so moderate temps. LEAF has 19,200 miles in 2 years. 100% charge about once or twice a week, otherwise 80% nightly. QC just 3 times so far. Never left long at 100%. We top off during the day back to 80% as needed (both work from home). Car is kept outside and charged outside, uncovered. So far, no capacity bars lost. No GID meter so don't know GID count.
Delivered: May 3, 2011
VIN: 1467 made 3-7-11
SL, Blue, eTec trim, EV project Blink
[purchased] as of 11-1-13: 25,000: 11 bars
Also have a PiP

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TonyWilliams
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Location: San Diego
Contact: Website

Re: Nissan buys back my Leaf

Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:50 am

evnow wrote:
TomT wrote:It is rather amazing that the Leaf is the only modern EV out there without TMS, and Nissan sees no problem with that... Without TMS, Nissan will never sell me another EV.

TMS is just an interim solution till the batteries improve.

I doubt we will have TMS in any EV in 10 years.


Unfortunately, that's not how Nissan views things today. I do agree, however, that there no doubt is a day in the future with such uber efficient motors, inverters, converters and batteries, that there are no heavy and expensive liquid cooling onboard.

The LEAF isn't close to that day.

hyperlexis
Posts: 127
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:52 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Jan 2013
Location: Illinois

Re: Nissan buys back my Leaf

Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:24 am

On my old Hyundai Sonata, the dealers spent so much money over the years on various warranty repairs (new lower block, valve head repairs, clutch jobs, flywheels, wheel bearings, starter, etc....) the company would have saved money just handing me the keys to a new car. So consider yourself very lucky they gave you a full refund.

However it concerns me why if an owner wants to make a warranty claim on battery problems, they didn't roll out the red carpet for you and replace any bad cells ASAP. A refund is great, but it's such an extreme solution. Makes me wonder why? I'm sure the batteries must cost less than a whole new car, but still the thought crossed my mind -- like a PC with a sealed-in battery (MacBook, Surface....), is it cheaper to throw the whole thing out rather than repair??????

I shudder to think it could be the case.

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TomT
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Location: Foothills of Granada Hills, CA
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Re: Nissan buys back my Leaf

Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:36 am

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one... I do agree that some day we will have batteries that will not require temperature conditioning to maintain performance or life but I also doubt we'll see that for at least another 15 years. In the meantime, I'll take that TMS behind door number 1, please.

DaveinOlyWA wrote:Tom; i have to disagree...and agree with you. I dont want the complexity or cost of TMS. having gone thru the Focus EV training while working at Ford, it is a considerable amount of added expense and in a 23 kwh pack for minimal gain.
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2017 Volt Premier. Model 3 reserved.

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