DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 11457
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Nissan buys back my Leaf

Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:02 am

Stoaty wrote:
TomT wrote:Perhaps, but I also don't think anyone considered Los Angeles to be an "extreme climate..." Nor was Nissan honest or forthright about the real affects of heat on the pack, or on pack degradation in general... I expected pack degradation but I never expected 20% in my environs in less than two years... Based on what we were told by Nissan, I was expecting 20 percent at the end of four years...

Clearly, a lack of TMS has turned out to be a gigantic engineering mistake.

Not sure I agree with you. While I live in West Los Angeles, my Leaf is parked in the sun in Canoga Park for 40 hours a week. I haven't lost any capacity bars, and my 100% charge today was 254 Gids (90.4% of capacity retained) after 22 months and 17,000 miles. There isn't a huge difference in the predicted rate of capacity loss between Van Nuys and Santa Monica based on the Battery Aging Model. What is puzzling to me is why some people such as yourself have lost 2 capacity bars, while others in fairly similar environments haven't lost any. Your car may be an outlier in terms of the rate of capacity loss for your area. It would be good to know the rate of capacity loss in the greater Los Angeles area. Perhaps there are other factors not accounted for (QC, leaving Leaf at 100% for longer period of time, manufacturing problem, phase of the moon, etc.).


what about driving styles? Tom makes it no secret that he just "drives it, like he stole it". Do you? aggressive driving might be generating just enough heat to kick the degradation up that one iota?

you are a pretty mellow driver (based on my warped memories anyway... I maybe wrong) and maybe the degradation is the difference between driving 60 mph and 70?
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 6190 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 102ish% kwh 28.1
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davewill
Posts: 4727
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:04 pm
Location: San Diego, CA, US

Re: Nissan buys back my Leaf

Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:04 pm

hyperlexis wrote:... However it concerns me why if an owner wants to make a warranty claim on battery problems, they didn't roll out the red carpet for you and replace any bad cells ASAP. A refund is great, but it's such an extreme solution. Makes me wonder why? I'm sure the batteries must cost less than a whole new car, but still the thought crossed my mind -- like a PC with a sealed-in battery (MacBook, Surface....), is it cheaper to throw the whole thing out rather than repair?????? ...
Because they don't consider his battery "broken" and repairable within warranty. They don't want to set a precedent of doing warranty repairs on cars like his. The buyback can be more easily written off as one-time goodwill gesture.
2014 Rav4 EV, Blizzard Pearl White
2011 LEAF SL w/QC, Blue Ocean, returned at end of lease

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mwalsh
Posts: 9386
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:10 am
Delivery Date: 05 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0213
Location: Garden Grove, CA

Re: Nissan buys back my Leaf

Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:08 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:what about driving styles? Tom makes it no secret that he just "drives it, like he stole it". Do you? aggressive driving might be generating just enough heat to kick the degradation up that one iota?

you are a pretty mellow driver (based on my warped memories anyway... I maybe wrong) and maybe the degradation is the difference between driving 60 mph and 70?



That's definitely a difference between Tom and myself, if so. As I started to notice degradation I changed my driving style to help mitigate it and stay within the same range of end-point SOC. The idea being that I wanted to avoid discharging any deeper into the pack than I had historically.

First I went from using D all the time to using ECO. Then I went from using ECO with cruise to using ECO without cruise.

Of course, there really isn't anyplace else to go from here, but I do feel like I've helped myself somewhat.
2011 Blue Ocean SL with 66,000 miles.
2015 pack under warranty 12/30/15.
Tinted windows.
Michelin MXV4 tires.
L1 EVSE upgrade.
FIAMM horns.
Superbright LED lighting.
2013 sun visors.
LED shifter.
Heated seats.
GT-R map lamp lenses.
AV L2 EVSE.

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TomT
Posts: 10501
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Leaf Number: 000360
Location: Foothills of Granada Hills, CA
Contact: Website

Re: Nissan buys back my Leaf

Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:14 pm

I drive pretty mildly. My typical freeway speed is 62 or 63 (indicated) and I don't brake or accelerate heavily...

DaveinOlyWA wrote:What about driving styles? You are a pretty mellow driver (based on my warped memories anyway... I maybe wrong) and maybe the degradation is the difference between driving 60 mph and 70?
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2017 Volt Premier. Model 3 reserved.

DaveinOlyWA
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Posts: 11457
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
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Re: Nissan buys back my Leaf

Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:30 pm

TomT wrote:I drive pretty mildly. My typical freeway speed is 62 or 63 (indicated) and I don't brake or accelerate heavily...

DaveinOlyWA wrote:What about driving styles? You are a pretty mellow driver (based on my warped memories anyway... I maybe wrong) and maybe the degradation is the difference between driving 60 mph and 70?


oh ok, my bad. I thought you were in the "70 mph" crowd.

That's definitely a difference between Tom and myself, if so. As I started to notice degradation I changed my driving style to help mitigate it and stay within the same range of end-point SOC. The idea being that I wanted to avoid discharging any deeper into the pack than I had historically.

First I went from using D all the time to using ECO. Then I went from using ECO with cruise to using ECO without cruise.

Of course, there really isn't anyplace else to go from here, but I do feel like I've helped myself somewhat.


did you see Tom's post about a new discovery concerning charge memory and LiPO?
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 6190 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 102ish% kwh 28.1
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jstack6
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:32 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Sep 2012
Location: Chandler Arizona

Re: Nissan buys back my Leaf

Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:21 pm

Nissan has just developed a hot area battery and is just finishing the testing now. It should be released in 2014 but just for extreme hot areas. Maybe with enough driver in warm areas stating it's needed they could produce more or even make it standard in the future.

Imagine how much extra energy is used for the battery cooling. I have both a 2013 LEAF and a Focus EV that has cooling. On 120 the Focus can either cool or charge but not both. So on a hot day in the sun you may get very little charging done. On 240 it blows and expels so much heat I can't park it in the garage, I have to leave it outside. I've tried to calculate the energy used for cooling but don't have a good method. In general it seems to be almost twice as much.

The new Nissan battery Chemistry maybe the answer. The LEAF heat pump cabin cooling is twice as efficient as the Focus Air Cond ! Range drops 30 miles when I flip AC on in the Focus after a full charge.

hyperlexis
Posts: 127
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:52 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Jan 2013
Location: Illinois

Re: Nissan buys back my Leaf

Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:43 am

jstack6 wrote:Nissan has just developed a hot area battery and is just finishing the testing now. It should be released in 2014 but just for extreme hot areas. Maybe with enough driver in warm areas stating it's needed they could produce more or even make it standard in the future.

Imagine how much extra energy is used for the battery cooling. I have both a 2013 LEAF and a Focus EV that has cooling. On 120 the Focus can either cool or charge but not both. So on a hot day in the sun you may get very little charging done. On 240 it blows and expels so much heat I can't park it in the garage, I have to leave it outside. I've tried to calculate the energy used for cooling but don't have a good method. In general it seems to be almost twice as much.

The new Nissan battery Chemistry maybe the answer. The LEAF heat pump cabin cooling is twice as efficient as the Focus Air Cond ! Range drops 30 miles when I flip AC on in the Focus after a full charge.


Are they going to issue a recall or TSB to retrofit existing Leaf's in hot weather areas? There are far too many of them out there to ignore.

Weatherman
Posts: 916
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:03 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jul 2012
Leaf Number: 20922
Location: Weston, Florida

Re: Nissan buys back my Leaf

Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:22 am

jstack6 wrote:Imagine how much extra energy is used for the battery cooling. I have both a 2013 LEAF and a Focus EV that has cooling. On 120 the Focus can either cool or charge but not both. So on a hot day in the sun you may get very little charging done. On 240 it blows and expels so much heat I can't park it in the garage, I have to leave it outside. I've tried to calculate the energy used for cooling but don't have a good method. In general it seems to be almost twice as much.


I have a Volt and it spends a fair amount of time cooling the battery, but it doesn't use anywhere near twice as much energy as my LEAF. Maybe 10-15% more. Considering the LEAF battery temp hovers in the 90s and the Volt is trying to keep its battery temp somewhere in the 70s, that's not too bad.

(Obviously, the hotter the climate, the more energy the car would use to keep the battery cool.)
2013 Crystal Red Volt
2012 SV Glacier Pearl LEAF; turned in 5/12/2015:18.6K Miles:50.13 AHr:10 bars, 24% gone

edatoakrun
Posts: 4176
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Nissan buys back my Leaf

Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:22 am

Weatherman wrote:
jstack6 wrote:Imagine how much extra energy is used for the battery cooling. I have both a 2013 LEAF and a Focus EV that has cooling. On 120 the Focus can either cool or charge but not both. So on a hot day in the sun you may get very little charging done. On 240 it blows and expels so much heat I can't park it in the garage, I have to leave it outside. I've tried to calculate the energy used for cooling but don't have a good method. In general it seems to be almost twice as much.


I have a Volt and it spends a fair amount of time cooling the battery, but it doesn't use anywhere near twice as much energy as my LEAF. Maybe 10-15% more. Considering the LEAF battery temp hovers in the 90s and the Volt is trying to keep its battery temp somewhere in the 70s, that's not too bad.

(Obviously, the hotter the climate, the more energy the car would use to keep the battery cool.)


You also have to consider the high maintenance and repair costs battery cooling will require you to pay in the future.

Xpost from:


Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 LEAF

...
BBrockman

...Currently, we have almost completed testing of a new battery chemistry intended to substantially slow capacity loss in extreme heat. During constant testing at battery temperatures of 45 C/113 F, the new battery chemistry is performing similar to the manner that the current battery performs in temperate areas like San Francisco or Seattle...


If true, then isn't every BEV/PHEV with an ATM battery cooling system now functionally obsolete?

What do the "I will never buy a BEV without ATM", and "The LEAF would be a great car, if it only had ATM" party members have to say in response?
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13192&start=390
no condition is permanent

hyperlexis
Posts: 127
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:52 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Jan 2013
Location: Illinois

Re: Nissan buys back my Leaf

Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:03 am

edatoakrun wrote:
Weatherman wrote:
jstack6 wrote:Imagine how much extra energy is used for the battery cooling. I have both a 2013 LEAF and a Focus EV that has cooling. On 120 the Focus can either cool or charge but not both. So on a hot day in the sun you may get very little charging done. On 240 it blows and expels so much heat I can't park it in the garage, I have to leave it outside. I've tried to calculate the energy used for cooling but don't have a good method. In general it seems to be almost twice as much.


I have a Volt and it spends a fair amount of time cooling the battery, but it doesn't use anywhere near twice as much energy as my LEAF. Maybe 10-15% more. Considering the LEAF battery temp hovers in the 90s and the Volt is trying to keep its battery temp somewhere in the 70s, that's not too bad.

(Obviously, the hotter the climate, the more energy the car would use to keep the battery cool.)


You also have to consider the high maintenance and repair costs battery cooling will require you to pay in the future.

Xpost from:


Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 LEAF

[quote] ...


Why would having a battery cooling system result in high maintenance costs? -- it's no more than a larger radiator system filled with coolant and an electric water pump and thermostats. It's not freon based, correct? And even if it were, so what? Right now the Leaf has just such a system, except it only sends coolant to the charger to cool it down, back in the trunk. It would be far, far cheaper to have to flush the long-life coolant once in 10 years than to need to replace a cooked battery pack in three.

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