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planet4ever
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Re: PG&E / CPUC - Non-Tiered Time Of Use Rates

Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:45 am

srl99 wrote:Request - lobby the CPUC to get PG&E's rates in line with other similar California providers
I really don't think I want to do that. There are only two large regional utility companies in the state; Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E) in the north and Southern California Edison (SCE) in the south. San Diego Gas & Electric (SDG&E) is much smaller, but could perhaps be added to the list. Utilities like SMUD in Sacramento and LADWP in Los Angeles are "publicly owned", i.e. run by local governments and not beholden to investers, so are not "similar" in any economic sense.

I'm not personally familiar with SCE or SDG&E rate structures, but my understanding from things I've read on this board is that they both split out cost of generation from cost of transmission. When you buy power from them you naturally have to pay for generation plus transmission. But apparently they also charge you for transmission when you sell power to them, so the net is that they pay you for generation minus transmission.

PG&E does split out cost components in their rate tariffs, but from my experience they lump everything together in their billing. In effect, when I feed excess power onto the grid they pay me for generation plus transmission. So, no, I definitely don't want to lobby them to do it like SCE and SDG&E do.

srl99 wrote:A home, partial year (~2 kW solar)- ended up with a surplus of electricity to the grid. E-1 rate plan, which would have resulted in a "check" from PG&E. PG&E paid 3c/kWH. They explained this as their "cost of acquiring electricity". Apparently in years prior, they would not have paid for a net excess.
You use less electricity than your 2kW solar generates? Wow! I'm impressed. You must not be using any air conditioning, or an electric dryer. You are either charging your LEAF away from home, or not driving it many miles at all per day.

You really threw me by saying E-1. I would think anyone who is charging an EV at night would want a time-of-use plan, not a flat rate like E-1. Even more so if you aren't using air conditioning during peak periods. Frankly, the "cost of acquiring electricity" sounds like a generation vs. transmission split, so perhaps for E1 PG&E is already playing the same nasty game that SCE and SDG&E do.

Ray
End of April 2013: Traded my 2011 SL for a 2013 S with charge pkg.

Phoenix
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Re: PG&E / CPUC - Non-Tiered Time Of Use Rates

Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:08 am

planet4ever wrote:
srl99 wrote:If you are a net generator, PG&E pays you 3c/kWH for your excess electricity - which they claim is their cost to acquire.

I suppose it is possible that if I were a net generator on an annual basis they would have some fine-print rule that would reduce that to $0.03/kWh. If so, I have certainly not found it. Here is what I see in the PG&E NEMS tariff:
If the eligible customer-generator is a net generator, the net kWh generated shall be valued at the rate for the kWh up to the baseline quantity, with any excess kWh generated, valued at the rate for the appropriate tier level in which the equivalent kWh of usage would fall.


What is the basis for your assertion, srl99, that they really pay a small fraction of that amount?

Note: I am assuming home-scale solar or wind generation, not exceeding 30kW. I believe most home installations are significantly below that, typically closer to 5kW. Are you perhaps talking about large commercial installations? I haven't looked at the rates for those.

Ray


It is true that if you are a net generator, PG&E only pays you 3 or 4 cents per kwh. I made the wrong assumption (when my year end bill showed a net credit of $300) in thinking I would get that $300 credit on my future bills. But no, you only get a credit if you are a net generator (which I was not--I was a net consumer). But in talking to PG&E then, I was told that had I been a net generator, I would only get 3 or 4 cents per kwh. Hence, not much incentive to be a net generator.

So with E-7 & E-6, we do benefit from the peak rates of Net Energy Metering, which is something we want to RETAIN. But, for an energy efficient home that is a net generator, no incentive there.

srl99
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Re: PG&E / CPUC - Non-Tiered Time Of Use Rates

Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:53 am

Given that it's a "regulated" monopoly, the structure of the company is not relevant (whether it's investor-owned (for profit) or mutual benefit). The regulator's job is to ensure fair pricing in the absence of a competitive market. The investor's job is to decide whether owning a regulated utility is the best use of their capital.

The regulators aren't doing their job - they aren't ensuring that the rates are fair and equitable for all customers. There's an argument the rates for a regulated monopoly should be lower as they don't suffer the cost of competition, have a captive (predictable) market and have a greater economy of scale.

It makes economic sense to acquire solar panels to avoid the upper tiers of PG&Es rates, but my argument is that the residential rate structure is out of whack. You want solar panels, buy them - but not (primarily) to void PG&E tiers 3+ which are some of the highest in the country. A large scale generator should have economies of scale you can't duplicate on a small "plant".

Given it's economy of scale, and documented "cost to acquire" (3-4c/kWH), the mark-up on a kWH is stunning. Is SMUD's cost basis signficiantly different?

Yes, charging an EV on E-1 is expensive because of the residential "tiering", but it wouldn't be so bad if you paid 10 or 12c for all the kWH. [Which is ultimately what you're trying to achieve with TOU and shifting use to off-peak.]

Conserving energy is an accepted "value", but the implementation is badly broken. Your baseline is the average use of residences in your zip-code, and meant to cover some of your usage?? This bizantine teaser for a few cheap kWH isn't even the same number of kWH that PG&E uses to show you whether or not you are being "efficient".

The greatest potential efficiencies must be at the commercial level (greatest use), where they don't suffer this off "inverse-economic" penalty for higher use.

"Who killed the Electric Car?" Partly - PG&E with help from the CPUC.

tbleakne
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Re: PG&E / CPUC - Non-Tiered Time Of Use Rates

Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:14 pm

planet4ever wrote:I'm not personally familiar with SCE or SDG&E rate structures, but my understanding from things I've read on this board is that they both split out cost of generation from cost of transmission. When you buy power from them you naturally have to pay for generation plus transmission. But apparently they also charge you for transmission when you sell power to them, so the net is that they pay you for generation minus transmission.

Ray

Not quite true, at least for SCE. I am in SCE territory, operating under tariff TOU-DT-EV (single meter) with Net Metering for almost 2 years. Yes, generation and transmission are broken out separately, but whenever you are a net generator for a particular TOU, the signs for the billing of both generation and transmission are reversed. My understanding is that this is a consequence of a state law that requires all private utilities in the state to pay the same total rate for net generation as they bill for net consumption.
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surfingslovak
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Re: PG&E / CPUC - Non-Tiered Time Of Use Rates

Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:53 pm

For those interested, the submetering pilotImage has been approved by the CPUC, and the three largest IOUs. If you wanted to help test submetering for EVs, you can sign up through any of the MDMAs listed in alphabetical order below.

Electric Motor Werks, Inc.
(650) 400-3591
pev-pilot@emotorwerks.com
http://emotorwerks.com/free-juicebox

KnGrid (SDG&E only)
sdavis@kngrid.com
http://kngrid.com/signup

NRG EV Services LLC
(310) 954-2930
Mehrshad.Kouhkan@nrgenergy.com

OhmConnect
(404) 881-8659
https://login.ohmconnect.com/register/pev
matt@ohmconnect.com

srl99
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Re: PG&E / CPUC - Non-Tiered Time Of Use Rates

Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:34 am

PG&E updated their billing system for the new (higher!) rates, but is unable to update the Daylight Savings Time dates that have been in force since 2007. PG&E residential customers "enjoy" some of the highest rates in the country.

GoingGreener
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Re: PG&E / CPUC - Non-Tiered Time Of Use Rates

Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:06 am

[quote="surfingslovak"]For those interested, the submetering pilotImage has been approved by the CPUC, and the three largest IOUs. If you wanted to help test submetering for EVs, you can sign up through any of the MDMAs listed in alphabetical order below...


I tried to get more info via email re this study but was unsuccessful.
Might anyone have any thoughts to share?

Some of the questions I had were:

What expenses should we expect as a participant at the beginning, during and after the testing?
How would currently being on solar, E6, and having a balance due to PG&E during true-up be affected?

Thanks in advance!

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Nekota
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Re: PG&E / CPUC - Non-Tiered Time Of Use Rates

Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:23 pm

surfingslovak wrote:For those interested, the submetering pilotImage has been approved by the CPUC, and the three largest IOUs. If you wanted to help test submetering for EVs, you can sign up through any of the MDMAs listed in alphabetical order below...



This program of submetering allows one to participate in the EV-B program or what used to be E9-B which was a 2nd electrical service for the purpose of electric car charging. The electric providers in California have electric pricing that uses time of use rates and consumption rates. The consumption tries to be fair by providing different baseline amounts depending on your climate zone and if you heat your home electrically or have a medical need for electricity. The xx-B accounts provide a second baseline account but require a separate electrical connection. I wanted to make use of an extra baseline quantity for the EV but having a second electrical service installed required underground trenching to the utility transformer and upgrading the existing buried cables to conduit for both services, all which were cost prohibitive. My baseline in zone X for PG&E was 330 kwhr up until August and now has been decreased to 300 kwhr. So my LEAF typically uses 350 kwhr in a month so the baseline would be consumed by charging the EV and the normal electrical demand for the rest of the household would be added as higher tier electricity. What submetering does is attach a 2nd meter to your electrical service typically downstream from the current meter. This meter would be used to measure the electrical energy provided to the EV and subtracted from the total measured by the upstream meter. The advantage is the 2nd meter energy does not contribute to the household baseline since it has it's own baseline account. There are other advantages with a 2nd meter that include knowing your actual electrical input energy to the EV and enabling an equivalent 'road use tax' that appears as a gas tax on gasoline fuel.

Two things have changed which reduce the need for submetering. First the new EV rate plans that replace the E9 experimental plans do not have tiers so being on a two meter system doesn't make more low priced electricity available. The submetering with a PV system may help if the PV system is small in size or the addition of an EV would increase the electric consumption into higher priced tiers. The submetering is a major step in the right direction but wasn't available when I needed the choice. I'm not sure if there are any advantages of using submetering for an EV when on the EV rate plan or on the pv solar E6 plan.
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GoingGreener
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Re: PG&E / CPUC - Non-Tiered Time Of Use Rates

Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:10 pm

Thanks Nekota for your help!

Another baseline amount would be great. But it seems like that benefit might not be enough to offset the additional monthly fee for having a sub-meter. Probably with the costs of installation, or maybe even at the end of the pilot- reversal of the sub-meter, participating in this program would be costly to the utility customer.

srl99
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Re: PG&E / CPUC - Non-Tiered Time Of Use Rates

Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:00 pm

Nekota, you should move a few feet to Silicon Valley Power's service area and pay 10c/kWH all day, night and year.

The baseline amounts aren't "fair", they're just one component of the PG&E rate game enabled by the CPUC monopoly sponsor.

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