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ttweed
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Re: SDG&E Introduces New EV Rate Sept. 1, 2011

Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:14 am

walterbays wrote:How I interpreted their remarks was that the new EV-TOU rates were as yet undetermined and would be announced Sept. 1. Hence my surprise that they were asking people last night to go ahead and choose one of the rate options at unknown prices.

I was confused about that too, Walter, so I had to assume that if we were able to change rate schedules right now that the new rates after Jan. 1 were going to be the same as the current rates. I asked the lady presenter after the meeting if that was true and she seemed to confirm it. How could they ask us to buy something now that has an undetermined future price? That would be buying a pig in a poke! I decided right then that the best thing for us was to continue on the experimental rates for as long as possible.

Would there be anyone in any of the experimental groups who does not have a solar system installed (and might benefit from whole-home EV-TOU2 ) that would benefit from changing to existing EV-TOU rates right now? I don't see it--if everyone is doing 80% of their charging during super-off-peak period, as they said, every single experimental rate is less than the $.14/kWh rate of the existing EV-TOU tariff. Two of the groups (Y & Z) are HALF that price! Why would we change now?

TT
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TonyWilliams
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Re: SDG&E Introduces New EV Rate Sept. 1, 2011

Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:09 am

ttweed wrote:Would there be anyone in any of the experimental groups who does not have a solar system installed (and might benefit from whole-home EV-TOU2 ) that would benefit from changing to existing EV-TOU rates right now?
TT


I'm on the 7.7 cent rate (and should have been at the meeting), so my plan is more panels and "whole house" TOU-2 by Jan 1, 2014.

The bad part about this plan is that I'm a rule change away from making more solar not cost effective, naturally after I have spent the money. I suppose I would be committed to go off-grid then.

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walterbays
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Re: SDG&E Introduces New EV Rate Sept. 1, 2011

Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:48 am

TonyWilliams wrote:I'm on the 7.7 cent rate (and should have been at the meeting), so my plan is more panels and "whole house" TOU-2 by Jan 1, 2014.

The bad part about this plan is that I'm a rule change away from making more solar not cost effective, naturally after I have spent the money. I suppose I would be committed to go off-grid then.
If punitive EV TOU rates push enough people to solar, and then punitive solar regulations push enough people off-grid, that will establish a big secondary market for used batteries. That will let Nissan set the residual value high on old batteries, and then they'll be able to announce a nice low price on battery exchange to take us back to 12 bars. So you see how nicely it all works out? :-)

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Randy
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Re: SDG&E Introduces New EV Rate Sept. 1, 2011

Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:07 pm

Hi Tom,
I wanted to respond to your recent posting about the workshop that we held at the Energy Innovation Center last Thursday to discuss the winding down of the EV Rate Study in which you are participating, and provide some sample data that we've collected so far.

I’m sorry to learn about your disappointment in the information we provided, but I’m glad you shared it with us. Let me offer some additional background for the benefit of others who participated in the Study and may have questions.

We discussed at the meeting that this was a longitudinal Study over a span of time that would be long enough for us to witness the persistence of vehicle charging patterns. The Study does not end until Dec. 31, so we will look at the results once it is complete to determine rate change recommendations at that time. Rate recommendations to the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) take more than a year to approve and put in place, so any such changes are at least that far out. We should have made that more clear at the meeting.

For the Study, we were interested in understanding charging behavior across a large number of Leaf drivers, not just those who acquired their car in 2011, for example. While you were an early Leaf buyer (like myself), many in the study have not had their cars as long as we have, meaning that SDG&E doesn’t yet have two years of data from everyone to analyze and draw conclusions from. Since the EV Project was extended to the end of 2013 to allow for more participants, this allowed us to do the same and improve the Study by adding more participants as well. There was never an expectation that data gathered from this Study would be used to influence new EV rate design until the study concludes at the end of this year, and all the data was gathered and analyzed. While this analysis has yet to be done, we have been looking at the rough trends of the raw data collected (and I’ll post some data below), and we shared some highlights with you at last week’s discussion. We can certainly sponsor another workshop to review the final results around March of 2014, if there is interest.

The purpose of the workshop last week was to give the Study participants enough time to consider their rate alternatives, and introduce the option of rolling off these temporary experimental rates before the end of 2013, if there was another rate that could save them money.

Once we have reviewed the Study results we can determine if the findings warrant a new or modified EV rate, and if so, file an application with the CPUC to consider such a rate. I see that if we would have explained this aspect at the workshop, those attending would better understand the next steps in the process, and that the process can take more than a year. Your feedback is valued and this will influence our future communication with all Study participants (about 400 customers).

In a couple of places in your note, you make reference to getting “soaked” (and other adjectives) by the company, and you have also questioned our EV-friendly stance. I have to address those issues head on to make sure that the background facts are clear. SDG&E has been extremely supportive of EVs and we have done a number of things to show that support and “walk the talk”.

First, SDG&E was very proactive in negotiating and working with both Nissan and the EV Project to have the initial launch of LEAF and EV Project home and commercial chargers take place in San Diego. Once those commitments were in place and moving forward, we approached the CPUC and worked with them on the concept of the experimental rate program that you and I are both a part of. This innovative concept was not initially met with support, but in working with a large number of EV stakeholders it was approved by the CPUC in time for the initial launch in early 2011.

In addition, SDG&E partnered with ECOtality to pay for the installation of the second meter hardware (so the cars could be metered separately for the Study). Our group worked tirelessly with a number of internal SDG&E groups to make the second meter concept a reality, complete with a special billing process. Again, this is done nowhere else in the US that I know of. At other utilities, a separate EV meter must be connected to a new service, and that is very expensive to install.

Because of our partnership with Nissan and ECOtality, the LEAF and the EV Project were rolled out early to the region. You were able to receive many benefits at no charge because of this, including the infrastructure for the second meter that measured your LEAF usage and the ability to participate in the rate study. So I believe this and many other reasons qualify us as being very “EV friendly”.

As a participant in the Study you were randomly assigned to the Z EV TOU rate with the lowest price in the super off-peak time period, and the highest price in the on-peak time period. It sounds like because you were able to manage your charging time to be primarily during the super off-peak period, and avoid the on-peak pricing, you have enjoyed very low fueling costs for your EV for the past couple of years. Maybe we didn’t make it clear initially, but the 3 experimental rates were designed specifically for the Study to determine the influence of pricing on time-of-use EV charging and were never meant to be permanent rates.

As far as your question about time-of-use periods, as we described at the meeting, those time periods in the experimental rates were designed to specifically study the effect of weekday vs. weekend charging within the study and were not meant to reflect power system conditions of higher or lower system capacity like you would expect from other rates. Like you and others on the Z rate, I didn’t charge very much on-peak during the week or on the weekends because of the pricing, which is something that will be studied across the various experimental rates and analyzed when the study is done. For example, those with lower on-peak pricing may have less incentive to charge in only the super off-peak.

As we said in the meeting, we’d be happy to help you study your own personal situation at home to see what current EV rate would be the best for you to adopt. You can do so now, or you can wait until the study is over in December to switch.

In closing, I wanted to reiterate that I know that our company’s commitment to EVs in the region will remain strong, and that you will see this reflected in future programs. I hope you’ve enjoyed the benefits you’ve received so far, and I look forward to continuing my work to bring the best programs and services to you and other EV customers in San Diego.


Here is a small example of aggregated raw draft data that we’ve collected so far from participants in the SDG&E Rate Study, with more definitive analysis to be performed after the Study is over…

June 2011:

Rate X (2:1) 4% on peak, 9% off peak, 87% super off-peak
Rate Y (4:1) 6% on peak, 8% off peak, 86% super off-peak
Rate Z (6:1) 4% on peak, 6% off peak, 90% super off-peak

June 2012:

Rate X (2:1) 11% on peak, 14% off peak, 75% super off-peak
Rate Y (4:1) 10% on peak,9% off peak, 81% super off-peak
Rate Z (6:1) 8% on peak, 8% off peak, 84% super off-peak

June 2013:

Rate X (2:1) 12% on peak, 15% off peak, 73% super off-peak
Rate Y (4:1) 11% on peak, 10% off peak, 79% super off-peak
Rate Z (6:1) 9% on peak, 9% off peak, 82% super off-peak

SanDust
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Re: SDG&E Introduces New EV Rate Sept. 1, 2011

Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:27 pm

Randy, I do think that everyone who has benefited from the Ecotality Project does owe SDG&E a note of thanks for all the work they did in having it roll out in San Diego. For those of us who got chargers and installs that worked out to be a couple of thousand bucks. That will buy a lot of kWh. Ditto for the extra meter.

Also thanks for sharing the information about how the different rates have affected charging behavior (seems to be not much).

Of course the problem is that, having extended these low rates, people who have had benefited from them now feel that something is being taken away if they are no longer available.

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Re: SDG&E Introduces New EV Rate Sept. 1, 2011

Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:36 pm

SanDust wrote:Randy, I do think that everyone who has benefited from the Ecotality Project does owe SDG&E a note of thanks for all the work they did in having it roll out in San Diego. For those of us who got chargers and installs that worked out to be a couple of thousand bucks. That will buy a lot of kWh. Ditto for the extra meter.

Also thanks for sharing the information about how the different rates have affected charging behavior (seems to be not much).

Of course the problem is that, having extended these low rates, people who have had benefited from them now feel that something is being taken away if they are no longer available.

+1. Excellent post, Randy. Facts always trump conjecture, don't they? ;)
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walterbays
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Re: SDG&E Introduces New EV Rate Sept. 1, 2011

Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:12 pm

Randy wrote:I’m sorry to learn about your disappointment in the information we provided, but I’m glad you shared it with us
It sounded to me like people were mostly happy with the information you provided. The only disconnect was that some of us thought you were going to announce the new rates, and probably none of us in the audience guessed what was so obvious to you SDG&E folks that you didn't even think of talking about it - that rate setting involves a long regulatory process. So thanks for that clarification here.

The purpose of the workshop last week was to give the Study participants enough time to consider their rate alternatives, and introduce the option of rolling off these temporary experimental rates before the end of 2013, if there was another rate that could save them money.
It's good to have the reminder to consider the alternatives.

In a couple of places in your note, you make reference to getting “soaked” (and other adjectives) by the company, and you have also questioned our EV-friendly stance.
Just as with public L2 and QC rates whether or not the rates seem fair depends on your perspective. Consider: for me changing from the EV-Y rate to EV-TOU would mean a 50% rate increase! Wildly excessive, right? Well... Today my driving cost is 1/4 that of when I drove my Prius (remember a Prius doesn't get 50 MPG on short trips with the engine cold). Your EV-TOU rate would make it 3/8 the cost of a Prius. Is that excessive? Since I have solar I could switch to whole house tiered rates, stay in baseline, and drive for 1/3 the cost of a Prius. If I added more solar panels I might make that cost anywhere from 50% lower to 50% higher depending on which cost estimate I use - the devil is in the details.

And of course long term my driving cost must also include battery replacement cost, which Nissan refuses to tell us. But it's bounded by their $100/month rental offer, which just equals my cost to fuel a Prius, and 4X what I'm now paying SDG&E for fuel.

So I believe this and many other reasons qualify us as being very “EV friendly”.
No arguments here.

Here is a small example of aggregated raw draft data that we’ve collected so far
Thanks for that! That most charging is done at night we had all heard, and read in the EVproject reports as well. What I didn't expect to see was that as time went on people charged more during the day. As you suggested part of that could be the effect of new drivers joining the study. Your data should allow you to determine to what extent that was the case. A few more possibilities occur to me:

1. Getting accustomed) Initially I scrupulously avoided charging during the day because I'd be overpaying outrageously, over 3X as expensive. Talk about getting "soaked!" But wait. If I need a little more range and charge for an hour you're "soaking" me to the tune of about 80 cents, substantially cheaper than driving a Prius. I can live with that occasionally when I really need it.

2. Battery degradation) As our batteries age and lose capacity we're more likely to need to add charge during the day to take us the same distance our new batteries used to do on a single charge.

3. Lagging infrastructure) Say you return home in the afternoon with 2 bars left and are probably not going out again. It's smarter to wait to charge overnight when it's cheaper. But if it happens you do need to make another trip, what do you do? If you can be sure that there will be an available L2 station at your destination or an available QC station conveniently on route then you should still wait to charge, and take care of the contingency only if it arises. But if charging stations are scarce or frequently unavailable then you'd better recharge at every opportunity if there's a possibility you'll need it.

To study 1 you could look at peak/off-peak/super-off-peak ratios over time for each car individually, as I suppose you are doing.

To study 2 you could ask all of us to report our battery status to you, in bars if that's all we know, or in amp-hours or GIDs if we have or can borrow some extra instrumentation. Not everyone would tell you but I bet enough of us would to give you some useful data.

To study 3 you might correlate each car's home charging statistics with its public charging statistics from the EV Project. (I hope that the data release authorization we already made covers use by our utility.) You could say that a driver who charges relatively often at public stations finds the public infrastructure relatively more adequate for his use, than does a driver who charges seldom in public. Do those who frequent public charging stations charge less at home on peak? If so, is their total peak charging (home plus public) less than that of drivers who find the public infrastructure unusable?

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drees
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Re: SDG&E Introduces New EV Rate Sept. 1, 2011

Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:05 pm

Randy wrote:I wanted to respond...
Very well written Randy!
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electricfuture
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Re: SDG&E Introduces New EV Rate Sept. 1, 2011

Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:13 pm

SDG&E called me to inform me that there are new EV rates effective SEPTEMBER 1, 2013 - check your bill (the rates were not yet on the their site when they called 2 days before they went into effect to the surprise of the representative that called me). The new rate for Super off Peak has increased from $0.14 to $0.16 - this is not inclusive of the other kWh charges as usual, which remain hidden under the table on your bill, so you have to add it up yourself.

Randy's defense of SDG&E was very informative and eloquent filled with the true facts "according to SDG&E". Problem is they need to get out of town more (and I certainly don't mean So. Cal. Ed and PG&E) and see how ridiculous their overcharging of the customers really is. Is it any wonder the citizens have sued them more than once over excessive rates?

So you want to go off grid? I don't blame you but it really is a hassle requiring auto transfer switches, fuel delivery & battery systems. Adding solar panels to get down to net zero is the way to go - and the new rate structure supports this because net metering does not consider the time of day (forget TOU it doesn't add up as earlier discussed). But SEMPRA is WAY ahead of us! SEMPRA/SDG&E have proposed to the PUC about 2 weeks ago a "base electric charge rate" that would eliminate the tier system - sounds good. But consider if approved you can no longer have net zero metering as there will always be a base charge applied to everyone - which of course will be increased over time. There goes your're solar advantage but it guarantees SEMPRA/SDG&E profits going forward even if every roof has solar.

By the way at current installation costs it appears that installing PV on every south/west facing roof in San Diego County would be cheaper in actual un-subsidized cost than decommissioning San Onfre or building the Sunrise Power link. Oh it also would mean that you would not need Gas Turbines for peaking or the Sunrise Power line, and the "stress" on the distribution network would be greatly reduced - but none of this contributes to SEMPRA/SDG&E's bottom line, so it won't happen. You know like the 200 year plan to move neighborhood over head lines to underground. I assume it is a 200 year plan based on their progress over the last 10 years. ;)

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drees
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Re: SDG&E Introduces New EV Rate Sept. 1, 2011

Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:40 pm

electricfuture wrote:SDG&E called me to inform me that there are new EV rates effective SEPTEMBER 1, 2013 - check your bill (the rates were not yet on the their site when they called 2 days before they went into effect to the surprise of the representative that called me). The new rate for Super off Peak has increased from $0.14 to $0.16 - this is not inclusive of the other kWh charges as usual, which remain hidden under the table on your bill, so you have to add it up yourself.

You must be referring to the EV-TOU rates? If the super off-peak rate is going up to $0.16, what are the off-peak and on-peak rates going up to?

FWIW, accord to my last month's bill on EPEV-X schedule, my rates are:
$0.13531 Super off peak
$0.16546 Off peak
$0.27135 On peak

That does not include taxes/fees which at $0.18 are negligible.

New EPEV-X rates are up http://regarchive.sdge.com/tm2/pdf/ELEC ... EPEV-X.pdf
$0.15106 Super off peak
$0.18472 Off peak
$0.30293 On peak

New winter rates are:
$0.15850 Super off peak
$0.18899 Off peak
$0.19655 On peak

What I can't find are the total rates for EV-TOU, DR-TOU to compare...

I did find this page saying that rates are going up for everyone, especially DR Tier-3+ customers:
http://www.sdge.com/residential/2013-rates

Good news - solar just got more affordable and your payback period for your existing solar system just got shorter. :P

Edit: Found the EECC rates so I could add them to the distribution costs (why is it so hard to figure out what electricity costs???)

DR Summer / Winter:
0.14764 / 0.14764 Baseline
0.17077 / 0.17077 101-130%
0.34590 / 0.32737 131-200%
0.36590 / 0.34737 200%+

Ouch, those upper tiers went up quite a bit.

Edit 2: Finally found a list of total electric rates - don't know how I missed it before:
http://www.sdge.com/total-residential-electric-rates
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