Official Southern California Edison thread

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I clicked on their link to send an email to their PEV (Plug In Vehicle) group. My questions were about my solar Net Metering Agreement (I currently make more kWh than I use, and I expect to use at least 2500 kWh more than I make once I'm charging an EV), whether I should consider a TOU rate plan for charging an EV and if such a rate plan is compatible with a Net Metering Agreement, and the cost for a second meter for an EV TOU rate plan.

Here is what I received back:

Thank you for visiting Southern California Edison's website.

SCE customers who have a solar generating system are eligible to enroll in the same PEV rates as customers who do not have solar generating systems.

Depending on how you use electricity, there could be significant differences among rate options. SCE customers who purchase a plug-in electric vehicle can sign up for one of the following three choices:

· SCE's standard residential rate. Under the standard residential rate plan, the price per kilowatt-hour is tiered and increases as the amount of energy usage over your baseline allocation increases. Unless you have specifically selected a different rate option, you are probably on SCE?s standard residential rate. Remaining on this rate is the simplest choice, but it may not be the cost-effective choice for some plug-in electric vehicle owners depending on how you use electricity.

· Whole-house 'time of use' rate. This rate option uses a tiered structure similar to the standard residential rate, but provides lower electricity rates at night, when many plug-in electric vehicle owners are likely to charge their vehicles. This rate may be ideal for customers who have low usage during peak daytime hours of 10 a.m. to 6 p.m.

· Electric-vehicle-only 'time of use' rate. This rate uses a second meter to measure the electricity you use to charge your vehicle, so that it can be billed at a separate rate from the rest of your home. Rates are discounted for charging that occurs during ?off peak? night-time hours. This option potentially gives customers the lowest rates for electric vehicle charging, but also involves more initial set-up cost and time.

SCE is in the process of developing a 'rate calculator' to help purchasers of plug-in electric vehicles compare their rate options.

While all customers are eligible for these PEV rates, SCE customers who produce their own power are eligible for a special metering and billing option called Net Energy Metering (NEM). The NEM schedule allows solar customers to receive a credit for the surplus electricity they supply to the grid. This credit is then applied to customers' bills to offset all or part of the 'Energy' portion of their electric bill.

For more information about SCE's solar programs, please visit www.sce.com/solarleadership/gosolar/.

If you have any additional questions, or if we may be of further assistance in getting your home Plug-In Ready, please visit us at www.sce.com/pev or call us at (800) 4EV-INFO.

Sincerely,


Customer Service Representative

So, not much new here beyond what is on their web site, except that I now know that I can have a TOU plan within a NEM schedule. I'll probably call their info line after my July 1 Nissan AV electrician visit.
 
SCE rates for currently open TOU programs

TOU-EV:

Winter Off-peak 10.3¢/kWh
Winter On-peak 20.9¢/kWh

Summer Off-peak 10.3¢/kWh
Summer On-peak 28.8¢/kWh

TOU-D-T:

Winter On-Peak Level 1 13.9¢/kWh
Winter On-Peak Level 2 25.9¢/kWh

Winter Off-Peak Level 1 12.3¢/kWh
Winter Off-Peak Level 2 22.3¢/kWh

Summer On-peak Level 1 26.8¢/kWh
Summer On-peak Level 2 60.0¢/kWh

Summer Off-peak Level 1 13.2¢/kWh
Summer Off-peak Level 2 24.7¢/kWh

TOU-D-TEV:

Winter On-Peak Level 1 14.6¢/kWh
Winter On-Peak Level 2 27.6¢/kWh

Winter Off-Peak Level 1 12.3¢/kWh
Winter Off-Peak Level 2 22.3¢/kWh

Winter Super Off-Peak Level 1 10.1¢/kWh
Winter Super Off-Peak Level 2 16.0¢/kWh

Summer On-peak Level 1 27.6¢/kWh
Summer On-peak Level 2 63.4¢/kWh

Summer Off-peak Level 1 14.0¢/kWh
Summer Off-peak Level 2 26.1¢/kWh

Summer Super Off-peak Level 1 10.0¢/kWh
Summer Super Off-peak Level 2 15.7¢/kWh

See the following SCE web pages for more details:

TOU-D-T fact sheet: http://www.sce.com/NR/rdonlyres/72EBB49A-F50C-4ED7-9DEB-E72EA795F499/0/091207_R1503V11209.pdf
TOU-D-TEV and TOU-EV information: http://www.sce.com/residential/rates/electric-vehicles.htm
 
Here's the link to SCE's main plug-in electric vehicles mini-site: http://www.sce.com/PowerandEnvironment/ElectricTransportation/PEV/

SCE confirms here that a 240V EVSE should be hard-wired and requires a 40 amp breaker.

SCE residential customers who own an EV can choose from the following rate plans:
  • SCE’s standard residential rate.
  • Whole-house “time of use” rate.
  • Electric-vehicle-only “time of use” rate.

They also have a short survey on this mini-site that they would like prospective EV owners to complete so they can prepare for any upgrades they'll need to make to the grid.
 
I've tried to do some very rough numbers. This is based on a 5.76kwH system, and I'm sort of guessing the daily production numbers based on the monthlies the vendor supplied and by taking numbers from JimmyDreams system, which outputs 25% more production than I expect from mine. And, as you can see from the references to "super off-peak" I'm going with TOU-D-TEV. So, OK:

Typical summer weekday, when the car needs charging

23kwH generated during peak. Reimbursed at @ $0.276 each = $6.34
3kwH generated during off-peak in the AM. Reimbursed at @ $0.14 each = $0.42
5kwH used during peak. Purchased @ $0.276 each = <$1.38>
2kwH used during off-peak in the AM. Purchased @ $0.14 each = <$0.28>
9kwH used during off-peak in the PM. Purchased @ $0.14 each = <$1.38>
20kwH used during super off-peak in the AM. Purchased @ $0.10 each = <$2.00>

Summer weekday surplus $1.72

Typical summer weekend day, no car charging

26kwH generated during off-peak. Reimbursed at @ $0.14 each = $3.64
16kwH used during off-peak. Purchased @ $0.14 each = <$2.24>
4kwH used during super off-peak in the AM. Purchased @ $0.10 each = <$0.40>

Summer weekend day surplus $1.00.
If I should need to charge the car overnight, the surplus drops to <$0.60>.

Typical winter weekday, when the car needs charging

14.5kwH generated during peak. Reimbursed at @ $0.146 each = $2.11
1.5kwH generated during off-peak in the AM. Reimbursed at @ $0.123 each = $0.18
5kwH used during peak. Purchased @ $0.146 each = <$0.73>
2kwH used during off-peak in the AM. Purchased @ $0.123 each = <$0.25>
5kwH used during off-peak in the PM. Purchased @ $0.123 each = <$0.62>
20kwH used during super off-peak in the AM. Purchased @ $0.101 each = <$2.02>

Winter weekday surplus <$1.32>

Typical winter weekend day, no car charging

16kwH generated during off-peak. Reimbursed at @ $0.123 each = $1.97
12kwH used during off-peak. Purchased @ $0.123 each = <$1.48>
4kwH used during super off-peak in the AM. Purchased @ $0.101 each = <$0.40>

Winter weekend day surplus $0.09.
If I should need to charge the car overnight, the surplus drops to <$1.52>.

Now, to be fair to myself, I can barely balance my check book. I can't do "train A leaves the station X minutes before train B...." type math problems. And I'm guessing that the utility will pay me as much for my peak production as they would expect to pay me for any power I would need to buy at peak.

Edit: Offset 10% of daily production to off-peak rates, to make it more realistic.
Edit2: Lowered summer production to 26kwH. Starting to think 30kwH was a bit optimistic.
 
garygid said:
Not much summer A/C usage?

Nope.....

Ceiling fans
Cooling off in the communal pool before bed sometimes
Cold showers as necessary
No oven use during summer
Opening windows once the sun has gone down and the evening has started to cool off

....that sort of thing.

Worst summer average month use for us ever was July '06 ~26kwH daily, only 5kwH more than our normal summer use. Second worst was September '07 ~24kwH daily. I remember September '07 being hot. I don't remember July '06 clearly, but I guess it must have been the same.

Of course, once we get the PV going, especially if we do have a daily surplus, we may splurge. :) But we'll have to see.
 
Summer vs. Winter on TOU-D-TEV

The summer season shall commence at 12:00 a.m. on June 1 and continue until 12:00 a.m.
on October 1 of each year. The winter season shall commence at 12:00 a.m. on October 1
and continue until 12:00 a.m. on June 1.

Me: As you know, October can sometimes be a real biatch, so nice that it's on the winter rate schedule!

Holidays

Holidays are New Year's Day (January 1), Washington's Birthday (third Monday in February),
Memorial Day (last Monday in May), Independence Day (July 4), Labor Day (first Monday in
September), Veterans Day (November 11), Thanksgiving Day (fourth Thursday in November),
and Christmas (December 25).
When any holiday listed above falls on Sunday, the following Monday will be recognized as an
off-peak period. No change will be made for holidays falling on Saturday
 
mwalsh said:
I've tried to do some very rough numbers. This is based on a 5.76kwH system, and I'm sort of guessing the daily production numbers based on the monthlies the vendor supplied and by taking numbers from JimmyDreams system, which outputs 25% more production than I expect from mine. And, as you can see from the references to "super off-peak" I'm going with TOU-D-TEV.
It looks like you are calculating 16kWh every time you charge the Leaf, which may be a reasonable assumption as an average. I'm sure you realize that the amount each night is going to vary quite a bit, even if you use the car only for commuting, due to temperature, wind, traffic, and don't forget all those fellow workers who will be clamoring to carpool so they can ride in your totally cool car.

Working from fragmentary data (we don't know total usable battery capacity for sure, nor do we know percent of loss in charging), my guess is that a night's charge will be from 1kWh to 28kWh, with the high number only if you limp into your garage with the battery drained as far as possible. Only you can estimate where you will fall as an average in that range, based on your commute distance and conditions, and your personal driving style.

One more factor to consider: How long is your super off-peak? It may not be long enough to charge the Leaf completely with the 3.3kW charger they are initially providing.
 
planet4ever said:
Working from fragmentary data (we don't know total usable battery capacity for sure, nor do we know percent of loss in charging), my guess is that a night's charge will be from 1kWh to 28kWh, with the high number only if you limp into your garage with the battery drained as far as possible. Only you can estimate where you will fall as an average in that range, based on your commute distance and conditions, and your personal driving style.

One more factor to consider: How long is your super off-peak? It may not be long enough to charge the Leaf completely with the 3.3kW charger they are initially providing.

I was assuming the usable size of 24kwH we've talked about all along, and that 60-70mph "sweet spot" to still allow for 100 miles on a pack charge. My commute is 60 miles, so 60% of usable pack size (and I actually went 66.6% to make life easier). Sure my usage in less than ideal conditions might be more, but I've got some fudge room with the average amount of credit I'll have over the course of the year - enough for an extra 15kwH super off-peak, ~12kwH at off-peak/winter peak, and 5kwH summer peak, daily.

Super off-peak is 6 hours, between midnight and 6am each day. So that's enough time to put almost 20kwH back into the battery. But even if I REALLY drive it any particular day, and need to recharge the entire 24kwH overnight, the most it would cost is the 6 hours of super off-peak and the first couple of hours off-peak in the morning. Off-peak costs between $0.12kwH in the winter and $0.14kwH in the summer and I, of course, would need 4kwH at that rate to end up with a full pack from empty.

Edit: Full recharge of a 24kwH pack from empty on this rate plan would work out to be $2.50 in winter and $2.56 in summer.
Edit2: I changed my summer production down from 30kwH to 26kwH. So my fudge room is down quite a bit from the average posted above. Possibly as little as 4kwH super off-peak.
 
mwalsh said:
planet4ever said:
Working from fragmentary data (we don't know total usable battery capacity for sure, nor do we know percent of loss in charging), my guess is that a night's charge will be from 1kWh to 28kWh, with the high number only if you limp into your garage with the battery drained as far as possible. Only you can estimate where you will fall as an average in that range, based on your commute distance and conditions, and your personal driving style.

One more factor to consider: How long is your super off-peak? It may not be long enough to charge the Leaf completely with the 3.3kW charger they are initially providing.

I was assuming the usable size of 24kwH we've talked about all along, and that 60-70mph "sweet spot" to still allow for 100 miles on a pack charge. My commute is 60 miles, so 60% of usable pack size (and I actually went 66.6% to make life easier). Sure my usage in less than ideal conditions might be more, but I've got some fudge room with the average amount of credit I'll have over the course of the year - enough for an extra 15kwH super off-peak, ~12kwH at off-peak/winter peak, and 5kwH summer peak, daily.

Super off-peak is 6 hours, between midnight and 6am each day. So that's enough time to put almost 20kwH back into the battery. But even if I REALLY drive it any particular day, and need to recharge the entire 24kwH overnight, the most it would cost is the 6 hours of super off-peak and the first couple of hours off-peak in the morning. Off-peak costs between $0.12kwH in the winter and $0.14kwH in the summer and I, of course, would need 4kwH at that rate to end up with a full pack from empty.

Edit: Full recharge of a 24kwH pack from empty on this rate plan would work out to be $2.50 in winter and $2.56 in summer.


So now we assume a pack size of 28-30 KWH assuming a 80-90% DOD based on 24 KWH available.
 
EVDRIVER said:
So now we assume a pack size of 28-30 KWH assuming a 80-90% DOD based on 24 KWH available.

We don't disagree on the usable pack size though, do we? That was quoted in that "when does the fuel light come on" scenario presented in Japan. Didn't we also throw around a supposition some time ago that the actual pack size was 27.x kwH?
 
mwalsh said:
I've tried to do some very rough numbers. This is based on a 5.76kwH system, and I'm sort of guessing the daily production numbers based on the monthlies the vendor supplied and by taking numbers from JimmyDreams system, which outputs 25% more production than I expect from mine. And, as you can see from the references to "super off-peak" I'm going with TOU-D-TEV. So, OK:

Typical summer weekday, when the car needs charging

23kwH generated during peak. Reimbursed at @ $0.276 each = $6.34
3kwH generated during off-peak in the AM. Reimbursed at @ $0.14 each = $0.42
5kwH used during peak. Purchased @ $0.276 each = <$1.38>
2kwH used during off-peak in the AM. Purchased @ $0.14 each = <$0.28>
9kwH used during off-peak in the PM. Purchased @ $0.14 each = <$1.38>
20kwH used during super off-peak in the AM. Purchased @ $0.10 each = <$2.00>

Here's some further food for thought:

My solar PV system, 5.16 kW DC (24 panels @ 215W each) produced a daily average of 24.1 kWh in June, 28.0 kWh in July and 24.6 kWh in August of 2009. That is in Irvine, climate pretty close to Garden Grove's. If JimmyDreams is near the beach, the marine layer can have a significant downward impact. I think that with your system being a bit larger than mine, and even less affected by cloudiness, you will have a greater average output. Also, I have a pretty much south facing roof. Not sure about Jimmy's roof orientation or yours, but that will impact as well. I can't remember my roof angle, but that is a further determinant.

The other comment is about your assumption that SCE will reimburse at the same rate as they charge us. I haven't yet seen the rates they intend to pay us, but I fully expect them to pay at wholesale rates, while they charge us retail rates. They sent me a letter a few months back saying that they hadn't yet gotten approval from the PUC for the rates they will pay us, and referenced some very confusing rate structures online that I couldn't understand. I'd bet money that their reimbursement rate will be a fraction of the rates are charged.

Thanks for your posts on these utility rates. You're better than I am at reading the charts. I think they're designed to frustrate the average consumer.
 
Also, if you generate more than you "use" in the same time slot, it is as if you used nothing in that time slot, and generated "extra".

If you generate less than you use, it is as if you used a smaller amount and generated nothing, not like using a lot AND generating a lot.
 
Boomer23 said:
The other comment is about your assumption that SCE will reimburse at the same rate as they charge us. I haven't yet seen the rates they intend to pay us, but I fully expect them to pay at wholesale rates, while they charge us retail rates. They sent me a letter a few months back saying that they hadn't yet gotten approval from the PUC for the rates they will pay us, and referenced some very confusing rate structures online that I couldn't understand. I'd bet money that their reimbursement rate will be a fraction of the rates are charged.
I doubt if the PUC will let them get away with that. Certainly, up here in Northern California, PG&E has been forced to pay retail rates. Besides, as Gary points out, they are not even going to see a big chunk of what you generate, because it is going to straight from the roof into your house. They only see that as a reduction in your apparent usage, and you are definitely paying retail for what you buy. So you are saving at retail rates for everything you use yourself.
 
Back
Top