GregH
Posts: 860
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:16 pm
Delivery Date: 13 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 26967
Location: Irvine, CA

Re: Official Southern California Edison thread

Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:26 am

Is anyone else in SCE territory using an older 48v battery based PV system?

I was reluctant to switch from my home TOU-DT and TOU-EV1 plans to the new TOU-DA plan but it has worked out great so far. So much so that I ditched the 2nd meter for the car and am now charging on the single TOU-DA meter.. My PV system is a paltry 2.4kW and I don't think I've ever seen more than 1.5kW at peak. My typical 12-mo bill has has been about $360, but now on TOU-DA with car charging I'm at -$227 9 months into my cycle.. I figure my PV is netting me about $700/yr and cycling my battery about 6kWh/day about $400/yr. i.e. Without the PV and battery I'd probably be about +$800/yr on TOU-DA.

As an aside, I think the strategy behind TOU-DA is interesting.. Yes we still have cheap off-peak night time energy for EV charging and high prices on-peak (albeit later) for those with PV and net metering. The shift to 2-8pm discourages consumption 6-8pm while still giving PV owners credit for generation from 2pm-sun down.
Additionally the "baseline credit" (about $25/mo on my bill) looks like it's designed to lower the impact on those without PV but increases the benefit for those who have it. It certainly looks like a winner for those with an EV and PV especially if you can shuffle some energy to 6--8pm with a battery..
'17 blue Volt Premier w/ACC
'12 SL black Leaf
'11 SL blue Leaf
RAV4-EV 2002-2005
Gen1 & Gen2 EV1 1997-2003
PV 2.4Kw, 10kWh lithium battery SCE TOU-DA

User avatar
abasile
Forum Supporter
Posts: 1922
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:49 am
Delivery Date: 20 Apr 2011
Location: Arrowbear Lake, CA

Re: Official Southern California Edison thread

Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:50 am

Thanks to California SGIP (Self Generation Incentive Program) incentives available on a first come, first served basis for batteries coupled with renewable generation (applications accepted starting May 1), we are now hoping to be able to install a Powerwall 2 for a very reasonable price. Aside from the benefits of having a home backup system and being able to utilize our PV panels during outages, it will be helpful (as GregH mentioned) in eliminating our use of grid electricity during peak hours - particularly applicable to us because our PV generation is quite low after 2 PM due to shading.

Earlier this month, I paid a refundable $500 deposit via Tesla's website for a Powerwall 2. Their estimate for installation is quite reasonable, only $7000 including the Powerwall, but it's unclear to me whether this is the full cost. It is their SolarCity business that would do the installation. However, SolarCity has not proven (in my opinion) to be as responsive or customer-focused as Tesla's automotive side. (Hopefully Tesla will change this, particularly with their current focus on premium PV products.)

This morning, after fruitlessly trying to prod SolarCity to start the process and commit to preparing an SGIP application on my behalf, I accepted a higher bid from Pick My Solar, with LA Solar Group as the installer. It was actually through Pick My Solar, sort of a solar broker that's based in Los Angeles, that I first learned of the specifics of SGIP (after using them for our PV install). Their bid for installing a Powerwall 2 will allow me to back out if we don't qualify for an SGIP incentive of at least $0.30/Wh. They are preparing to submit applications on behalf of all of their customers at 8 AM on May 1.
2011 LEAF at 71K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 98K miles
LEAF battery: 9/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-28% vs. new)
Tesla battery: 250+ miles of range (-5% vs. new)

SurfHawk
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:43 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Oct 2016
Location: Santa Barbara

Re: Official Southern California Edison thread

Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Thanks for the info. So you expect a $4,200 credit ($.30Wh x 14kWh) via the SGIP? Sounds awesome.
2013 Leaf S - Purchased 10/2016
4kW Solar - Installed 11/2016

User avatar
abasile
Forum Supporter
Posts: 1922
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:49 am
Delivery Date: 20 Apr 2011
Location: Arrowbear Lake, CA

Re: Official Southern California Edison thread

Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:55 pm

SurfHawk wrote:Thanks for the info. So you expect a $4,200 credit ($.30Wh x 14kWh) via the SGIP? Sounds awesome.

It's based on the usable capacity, which is 13.5 kWh for the Powerwall 2. I'm not sure what the exact amount is going to end up being, but yes, I'm expecting at least $4050 from SGIP. Plus, the ITC (30% income tax credit) should apply if this can be considered part of a PV system installed during the same tax year. Certainly, I would consider it as such, since a home battery will enable us and the grid to derive maximum benefit from our PV panels. Also, I've read about recent instances in California where industrial-scale PV generation has been curtailed, so I'd rather be charging a battery than feeding into the grid during those periods when curtailment is most likely to occur. In the future, with battery costs dropping and net metering benefits declining, I think that batteries will come to be standard components in new PV installations.

Another thing - Pick My Solar told me that I can cancel my Powerwall reservation with Tesla, since LA Solar Group will be sourcing the Powerwall units directly from Tesla. LA Solar Group is a Tesla-certified installer.
2011 LEAF at 71K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 98K miles
LEAF battery: 9/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-28% vs. new)
Tesla battery: 250+ miles of range (-5% vs. new)

Valdemar
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Official Southern California Edison thread

Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:26 pm

I got an unsolicited 14kWh PowerWall quote from LA Solar Group via e-mail, they installed my array 2 years ago so they send me spam every now and then. $12,500 turn-key, SGIP rebate $7,000, $5,500 cost before a potential 30% tax credit, so about $4,000 if everything pans out. I haven't checked into details if these numbers are realistic, if anything I expect the cost will be higher than that. Our system generates enough so we end up with a credit on TOU-D-A each period even though we generate less than consume, so the battery doesn't make much financial sense on the current SCE rate schedule. Being able to have a backup energy source is appealing, but 5kW max continuous from the battery may not cut it for us, may just get a backup generator instead.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
53.92AHr, SOH 84.5%, 140k miles

9kW Solar

SurfHawk
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:43 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Oct 2016
Location: Santa Barbara

Re: Official Southern California Edison thread

Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:33 pm

From https://powerscout.com/site/californias ... gram-sgip/

$5,500 (list price) + $1,700 (installation) =
$7,200 total cost

13.5 kWh * $500/kWh incentive =
$6,750 rebate

$7,200 cost – $6,750 rebate =
$450 net price

Seems too good to be true.
2013 Leaf S - Purchased 10/2016
4kW Solar - Installed 11/2016

User avatar
abasile
Forum Supporter
Posts: 1922
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:49 am
Delivery Date: 20 Apr 2011
Location: Arrowbear Lake, CA

Re: Official Southern California Edison thread

Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:45 pm

Valdemar wrote:I got an unsolicited 14kWh PowerWall quote from LA Solar Group via e-mail, they installed my array 2 years ago so they send me spam every now and then. $12,500 turn-key, SGIP rebate $7,000, $5,500 cost before a potential 30% tax credit, so about $4,000 if everything pans out. I haven't checked into details if these numbers are realistic, if anything I expect the cost will be higher than that.

That is higher than the bid I accepted, but I used Pick My Solar to obtain the bid and informed them of Tesla's estimate. To save costs, I'm planning on simply backing up the main service panel rather than adding a "critical loads" subpanel. Also, $7000 for the SGIP rebate assumes that you get the maximum possible amount, which may or may not happen.

Valdemar wrote:Our system generates enough so we end up with a credit on TOU-D-A each period even though we generate less than consume, so the battery doesn't make much financial sense on the current SCE rate schedule.

If you have plenty of PV generation during peak hours, then it's harder to justify a battery in SCE territory. But what if you should add a long-range EV such as a Model 3 and thereby increase your electricity consumption? Something else we are considering (though probably not this year) is replacing our gas range with an electric one, to eliminate CO emissions inside the kitchen (the vent fan is noisy and we tend to not use it).

Valdemar wrote:Being able to have a backup energy source is appealing, but 5kW max continuous from the battery may not cut it for us, may just get a backup generator instead.

Could you use a subpanel to back up only your most critical loads? Or, in the event of an outage, would it be an option to manually switch off energy-hungry devices and stay under 5kW? That's what I think we'll need to do.
2011 LEAF at 71K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 98K miles
LEAF battery: 9/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-28% vs. new)
Tesla battery: 250+ miles of range (-5% vs. new)

User avatar
abasile
Forum Supporter
Posts: 1922
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:49 am
Delivery Date: 20 Apr 2011
Location: Arrowbear Lake, CA

Re: Official Southern California Edison thread

Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:55 pm

SurfHawk wrote:From https://powerscout.com/site/californias ... gram-sgip/

$5,500 (list price) + $1,700 (installation) =
$7,200 total cost

13.5 kWh * $500/kWh incentive =
$6,750 rebate

$7,200 cost – $6,750 rebate =
$450 net price

Seems too good to be true.

Yeah, Tesla's installation estimate seems low. But I don't know.

What I've been told (by Pick My Solar) is that the rules governing SGIP say that no single installer can be awarded more than 20% of the total pool of rebate funding. This would unfairly penalize large installers like Tesla/SolarCity. Perhaps this explains why SolarCity still hasn't contacted me about the time-sensitive SGIP application, and they've contacted others who reserved their Powerwalls earlier. (I haven't yet bothered cancelling my Powerwall reservation with Tesla and am sort of curious as to whether Tesla/SolarCity will ever get back to me regarding my SGIP inquiries, though I fully expect to stick with LA Solar.)
2011 LEAF at 71K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 98K miles
LEAF battery: 9/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-28% vs. new)
Tesla battery: 250+ miles of range (-5% vs. new)

Valdemar
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Official Southern California Edison thread

Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:38 pm

abasile wrote:
Valdemar wrote:I got an unsolicited 14kWh PowerWall quote from LA Solar Group via e-mail, they installed my array 2 years ago so they send me spam every now and then. $12,500 turn-key, SGIP rebate $7,000, $5,500 cost before a potential 30% tax credit, so about $4,000 if everything pans out. I haven't checked into details if these numbers are realistic, if anything I expect the cost will be higher than that.

That is higher than the bid I accepted, but I used Pick My Solar to obtain the bid and informed them of Tesla's estimate. To save costs, I'm planning on simply backing up the main service panel rather than adding a "critical loads" subpanel. Also, $7000 for the SGIP rebate assumes that you get the maximum possible amount, which may or may not happen.

Valdemar wrote:Our system generates enough so we end up with a credit on TOU-D-A each period even though we generate less than consume, so the battery doesn't make much financial sense on the current SCE rate schedule.

If you have plenty of PV generation during peak hours, then it's harder to justify a battery in SCE territory. But what if you should add a long-range EV such as a Model 3 and thereby increase your electricity consumption? Something else we are considering (though probably not this year) is replacing our gas range with an electric one, to eliminate CO emissions inside the kitchen (the vent fan is noisy and we tend to not use it).

Valdemar wrote:Being able to have a backup energy source is appealing, but 5kW max continuous from the battery may not cut it for us, may just get a backup generator instead.

Could you use a subpanel to back up only your most critical loads? Or, in the event of an outage, would it be an option to manually switch off energy-hungry devices and stay under 5kW? That's what I think we'll need to do.


I'm sure I could work with them on the price, they are good folks and pretty competitive price-wise but you need to know who to talk to. Given you went through a broker there may be less room for a negotiation. Can you share the your proposed cost before the incentives?

Yes, adding a second EV which is pretty much on the table or even more so a change in the rate structure can have a negative effect. We have a pool, so I can also run the pump during super off-peak hours which will help somewhat.

Critical loads sub-panel is tricky as most loads are already supplied from a sub and there is no room next to it to put another. Manual disconnect isn't really an option, I just don't see my wife and kids running around switching A/C and pool pump off when I'm not at home and there is an outage. We do get outages quite often for some reason, more often than when we lived in LADWP territory it seems, and we are not exactly in a rural remote area either, kind of annoying.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
53.92AHr, SOH 84.5%, 140k miles

9kW Solar

tbleakne
Gold Member
Posts: 979
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:05 pm
Delivery Date: 03 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 2400
Location: Claremont, CA

Re: Official Southern California Edison thread

Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:26 pm

Wow great to see all the activity for installing Powerwalls or other PV battery storage.

One big question. I was told by a Powerwall installer guy at a Tesla OC meetup last month that PW was currently only licensed for Backup, not load leveling. I believe this means you can't draw from the battery unless it thinks the grid is down, but perhaps I am wrong. If you are doing load leveling, you need different software that watches you house usage and solar generation simultaneously.

He did imply that the PW would automatically cut in if the grid goes down. This by itself is a big step for the utilities to approve, because it means they are relying on the software and not a manual disconnect to keep your generation off the grid when the grid is down. If you folks have different information, please post.
LEAF Ocean Blue SL, "100 % Electric" decals, Delivered June 3, 2011
Sold June 2014 27K miles, 18% capacity loss, 1 bar, 5.0 mi/kWh.
Solar 4.6 KW DC with both string and micro-inverters.

Return to “Utilities”