PG&E EV Charging rates E-1 and E-9 - Not so simple

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EVDRIVER

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2010
Messages
6,753
hill said:
Don't forget to add insult to injury . . . the extra monthly lease fee/cost of the Meter set aside for EV charging ... plus tax, on that (shaking head).


E9 meter charge is $2200. Paid a little each month for your lifetime.
 
In stead of (over) paying for a meter (effectively destroying the benefit of cheeper electricity for an EV), what do you think the odds are that the utility company would let you buy and install (via a licensed contractor) your own meter.
 
EVDRIVER said:
E9 meter charge is $2200. Paid a little each month for your lifetime.
WHOSE lifetime :mrgreen: The car's ( I might sell ), mine ( I might die, I might move ) ?

That $$ is RIDICULOUS !!! :x

Let's complain to PUC !

I assume I can add that $$ to the total when I apply for the 50% tax credit ... so now we're talking PGE + AV = $4,400 out of pocket, less $2,000 (current limit) tax credit after filing with IRS. (Luckily the PGE $$ is not immediate out of pocket. Still it is a "hidden cost".)
 
hill said:
In stead of (over) paying for a meter (effectively destroying the benefit of cheeper electricity for an EV), what do you think the odds are that the utility company would let you buy and install (via a licensed contractor) your own meter.

I'm not sure that is the installed cost. It is the cost of the meter itself that PGE will install into a panel that you will have to install into your home. You'll likely be without power for several days.

1 - Install panel into home without main connection.
2 - Call PGE to remove power from your home
3 - Have Electrician connect the new panel in parallel with the existing panel
4 - Call PGE and have them as well as any other required inspectors sign off on the installation
5 - PGE installs meter into new panel
6 - PGE turn power back on.

Cost for panel installation and inspections by others (not pge) are not included in PGE's price.
 
I took a brief look at adding a second meter but decided I'd rather put the money into a small PV system instead. Got bullied into it by other forum members :)
 
Here's a spreadsheet that let you simulate what would happen to your electric bill if you use E-1 E-6 or E-9.
You can simulate adding solar panels, driving an EV etc.
It looks like the file came from Tesla and is fairly complex.
It is designed for california rate structure but I guess it can be adapted for other states with a bit of work
You need to update the rate structure as the data in the file are obsolete.
Also you need to adjust the solar system size as the file calculation are a bit optimistic.
I have a 5.04Kw system but I had to use 4.2 to be closer to the real output of my system.

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/804727/pgerates2-1-xls-september-16-2008-5-15-am-357k?dn=y
 
garygid said:
If you have PV and two meters, how can one best offset the usage of both meters?

If you more than offset the tiered non-tod home usage, you only get "credit" at tier 1, I suspect.
Then charging at night on TOD would be a lower rate. Will the credit on the house meter offset (some of) the charges on the TOD meter?
I am surprised that anyone would be using E-1 (non-TOD) if they have a PV system. I would think that the TOD E-6 (or E-7 if you were lucky enough to get it) would be a much better deal. So let me comment on a combination of E-6 for the house and E-9 for the Leaf.

Yes, if you have a large PV system so that you more than offset your total home use for certain months, you only get credit at tier 1. With E-6, the same is true even if you use more at night than you generate during the day, so long as the net use doesn't exceed your baseline. Your three daily periods are counted separately, and you may have a mix of credits and debits. The charges and debits are accumulated for a "true up" once a year. The same will happen for your E-9 debits, so in effect you can use house credits to offset Leaf debits at true-up time.

But given the extra expense of installing and running a second meter, I'm not sure that it makes sense if you have a PV system. Computing the real effect involves a lot of guesswork, but I seem to come out ahead just putting everything on a single E-9 schedule.
 
I already have a 6.3 kW solar system (installed last November) and on PG&E's net metering (I get one bill every year). Will they require any changes once I have the Leaf? I'm an August order, so I'm expecting the car Dec-Jan.

Thank you!
 
Ready2plugin said:
I already have a 6.3 kW solar system (installed last November) and on PG&E's net metering (I get one bill every year). Will they require any changes once I have the Leaf?..

No changes. You can choose rate schedule E6 or E9, whichever is to your advantage.
 
I have a 3.75 Kw PV system. I live in Grass Valley, CA and PG&E is my backup. I have Time of Use metering and am on the E-7 Rate schedule. I assume that I am good to go, or am I missing something?
 
You should be good to go too. You can choose to stay on rate schedule E7, or go to E6 or E9, whichever is to your advantage. Adam is pretty helpful at PG&E's clean air hotline, (800) 684-4648.
 
I wanted to simulate E9-A vs E9-B, so I created a spreadsheet which takes my actual consumption (I currently have a smart meter), that I downloaded from PGE (you can get your hourly consumption week by week -- that's only 52 downloads for a full year --)
I'm currently NOT using my baseline during the summer (no AC), and I'm a little bit over it during the Winter (that is without the EV).
I really thought that E9-A would be a really bad option, but it actually looks like to drive 25 miles / day with the Leaf (9125 / year), it's going to cost me less than $114 ... that's 1.25 cents / mile, which I'll be really happy with.
The spreadsheet is really basic, and it's in "Numbers" format (the OSX / iWork equivalent of Excel), but if anyone is interested I'd be happy to share it.

I can also tell you that on E9-A, even if driving 100 miles / day (and still doing all the charge during off-peak hours), my cost per mile would still "only" be 2 cents. (that's 36500 miles a year ... at $734 ... you'll never get that on an ICE car).

Of course, my spreadsheet can be buggy ;)
 
I just looked at my monthly net neerge statement and it has the following for my rate schedule:
E 1XB/NEMS. I don't see anyting about what schedule that relatest to. Looking at my charge for last month, if I take the expense and devide it by the amount used I get 0.1206 per kWH.

Under Current Month Baseline Quanitiy Information:
Description: B Units, Season: Summer, Daily Baseline Quantity: 12.1 and Monthly Baseline Quantity: 387.2.

Any suggestions?
 
Ready2plugin said:
I just looked at my monthly net neerge statement and it has the following for my rate schedule:
E 1XB/NEMS. I don't see anyting about what schedule that relatest to. Looking at my charge for last month, if I take the expense and devide it by the amount used I get 0.1206 per kWH.

I think that means you are on the standard residential rate schedule E1. The important part is to look at what tier your highest electricity usage is in each month. For example, if you use a lot of air consitioning in the summer, you might be in tier 3, 4, or 5, which costs more per incremental (added) kWh than tier 1 or 2. Your EV charging will use incremental kWh - it will be on top of your existing usage.

PG&E "requires" you to change to a time-of-use rate (TOU rates E9A or E9B) if you are charging an EV. If you add solar PV, PG&E would also let you use TOU rate E6 if you want.
 
DeaneG said:
PG&E "requires" you to change to a time-of-use rate (TOU rates E9A or E9B) if you are charging an EV. If you add solar PV, PG&E would also let you use TOU rate E6 if you want.

Just to clarify, E9a is for putting your whole house on the E9 rate, and E9b is for installing a second meter for just the EVSE to charge your car.
 
DeaneG said:
Ready2plugin said:
I just looked at my monthly net neerge statement and it has the following for my rate schedule:
E 1XB/NEMS. I don't see anyting about what schedule that relatest to. Looking at my charge for last month, if I take the expense and devide it by the amount used I get 0.1206 per kWH.

I think that means you are on the standard residential rate schedule E1. The important part is to look at what tier your highest electricity usage is in each month. For example, if you use a lot of air consitioning in the summer, you might be in tier 3, 4, or 5, which costs more per incremental (added) kWh than tier 1 or 2. Your EV charging will use incremental kWh - it will be on top of your existing usage.

PG&E "requires" you to change to a time-of-use rate (TOU rates E9A or E9B) if you are charging an EV. If you add solar PV, PG&E would also let you use TOU rate E6 if you want.

Thanks, I think I'll give PG&E a call. I'm already on a solar PV system (6.32 kWh AC), so I need to see which one would be best with charging the Leaf at night. I'll be driving 55 miles a day during the week, with probably only an occation trip around town on the weekend. We have two small children and my wife tends to do a lot of laundry during the day as well. Just one more thing to try to figure out. :?
 
Ready2plugin said:
Thanks, I think I'll give PG&E a call. I'm already on a solar PV system (6.32 kWh AC), so I need to see which one would be best with charging the Leaf at night. I'll be driving 55 miles a day during the week, with probably only an occation trip around town on the weekend. We have two small children and my wife tends to do a lot of laundry during the day as well. Just one more thing to try to figure out. :?
When you go to a TOU schedule you will discover it makes a huge difference whether your wife runs the dryer in the morning, afternoon, or evening. (Of course, people who are really into green use clotheslines instead, but your wife may think that is going too far.)

In case you haven't found them, all of the PG&E rate schedules are online at http://www.pge.com/tariffs/
 
planet4ever said:
Ready2plugin said:
Thanks, I think I'll give PG&E a call. I'm already on a solar PV system (6.32 kWh AC), so I need to see which one would be best with charging the Leaf at night. I'll be driving 55 miles a day during the week, with probably only an occation trip around town on the weekend. We have two small children and my wife tends to do a lot of laundry during the day as well. Just one more thing to try to figure out. :?
When you go to a TOU schedule you will discover it makes a huge difference whether your wife runs the dryer in the morning, afternoon, or evening. (Of course, people who are really into green use clotheslines instead, but your wife may think that is going too far.)

In case you haven't found them, all of the PG&E rate schedules are online at http://www.pge.com/tariffs/

I talked with Adam and PG&E and yes, we are on E-1 and probably will have to go to E-9 once we have our Leaf. We do use our clothesline as well but because of the amount of laundry my two girls go through, the dryer is also used quite regularly. Our dryer is unfortunately electric since our last house did not have a gas hookup, but since our new house does, maybe it's time for a change (although it's only 4 years old).
 
Ready2Plugin :
E1-XB means you're on the E1 rate, in zone X (if you look on page 6 of the rate E9, you'll see that the basic allowance depends on where you live), and B means that you've got the basic quantities (ie, your primary heater system is not electric).
I have no idea what the NEMS means.

I was on the exact same rate, however my heating system is electric, so at least buying a leaf has made me realize that PGE was wrongly charging me (especially in the winter) ...
 
gudy said:
Ready2Plugin :

I have no idea what the NEMS means.
...

I believe Adam stated the NEMS stands for Net Energy Meter Statement. I told my wife about not using the dryer during the peak time, and she said no problem, I'll just use the clothes line. I guess I'm good to go!!
 
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