Your decision to go E-9B (with PG&E)?

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

glemieux

Active member
Joined
Nov 16, 2011
Messages
33
I'm starting this post as a measure to ease my anxiety in deciding to have a second meter installed and move on to the E-9B rate. I haven't seen much in the way of people who have enrolled in E-9B commenting on their specific situation. Far more people seem to have commented on being in E-9A or E-1, than E-9B, which would seem to make sense if PG&E's comments in the recent rate change analysis (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=5794&hilit=E9B" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) are true (only 35 customers on E-9B; Perhaps none of them post here?). That said, if you're on E-9B I'd love to hear what your situation is and what brought you to that decision. I'd love to hear if others have seen similar analysis even if your situation was better on E-9A or E-1.

Here's my situation: I live in Berkeley in PG&E Tier Group T with it's very low baseline rates. My small family (wife, myself and child) stay below baseline on E-1 in summer (~85% of BL) and occasionally peek above baseline in winter. We don't have many devices that put a big power load on our electrical like a TV. Our house isn't well situated at all for solar. We picked up an 2011 orphan from Redwood City and it's my wife's main commuting vehicle at ~ 30 miles/weekday (I luckily can commute to work via bike). We've been approved for EVSE through the EVProject and we're awaiting the final quote from the electrician for installing the second meter (off the cuff remark was $1500 above what Ecotality will subsidize, which we can swing). I built my own spreadsheet to calculate the costs and with how little energy we use (aside from the EV) and how much the EV gets used, the E-9B rate just makes way more sense. At an $85 average price difference between E-9A and B (assuming charging 8-10 kWh on the overnight) that pays off the initial cost in 17 months.

Am I missing something here or are we just a little out of the ordinary, perhaps like those other 35 customers? I'm getting anxious as both PG&E and the electrician have made noises that E-9A should "work just fine for you" even though they haven't explicitly looked at my house and EV usage.

I haven't checked out what happens when I apply the rates that PG&E is suggesting. Going to do that now. This is getting tiresome. I *might* not have gone with an EV had I known there was this much rigamarole.
 
In my experience PG&E's recommendations are for an average household and have little in common with your own situation. I'd stick with your own math.

One thing to be aware of is that there is no guarantee that E9B rates will be available for the long term - the off-peak rates are below PG&E's marginal cost of generation, and they are trying to fix that. You may be safe enough if you only need 17 months to pay off the second meter installation.
 
I think that you should assume that PG&E's proposal for a flat E-9B rate will be approved by the CPUC. The Commission directed PG&E to eliminate baselines and tiers for E-9B. Assuming that you do all your charging during off-peak periods, it is a very simple calculation to make. You will be paying $.11 per kWh. Who knows when the new rates, if approved, will go into effect? It may take you a bit longer than 17 months to break even, but it still seems that it will be a good deal for you.
 
DeaneG said:
In my experience PG&E's recommendations are for an average household and have little in common with your own situation. I'd stick with your own math.
Thanks for the vote of confidence :).
DeaneG said:
One thing to be aware of is that there is no guarantee that E9B rates will be available for the long term - the off-peak rates are below PG&E's marginal cost of generation, and they are trying to fix that. You may be safe enough if you only need 17 months to pay off the second meter installation.
I re-ran the numbers with PG&E's recommendation to PUC for non-Tiered E-9 rate (A&B have same rates in their recommendation) and the savings is a flat $20 no matter what our EV usage. So long as we don't go installing a huge plasma TV or AC systems, it does seem, as you point out, that we should be good as long as the rate doesn't change too soon.
 
oakwcj said:
I think that you should assume that PG&E's proposal for a flat E-9B rate will be approved by the CPUC. The Commission directed PG&E to eliminate baselines and tiers for E-9B.
Yeah, I think that's a good assumption. I'm hoping I can just eek out a bit of time before the change gets instated. The way I look at it I'm better off in E-9B no matter what, unless they institute some major change in policy, like supporting subtractive metering. But I'm guessing by the time they get to that, even at $20 difference the second baseline will have paid itself off :lol: .
 
glemieux,
The reason people don't do E9B is because in most situations it costs many thousands to get the second meter installed. Additionally, many city and county codes won't allow a second meter even if PG&E is willing (That's my situation.) My E9A seems like it saves quite a bit of money, and it cost nothing to switch from E1.
 
Expect nothing from PG&E. They want to make money and don't care about anything else just like any other corporate entity in the US, let alone our Leafing around one way or the other.

My electrical bill topped at $400 the first month with the Leaf on board. I have 2 ACs (split level house). I'm on E7 (no longer available with off peak top rate of 25 cents per kW).

My plan is 8-9 kW Solar Shingles (DOW Powerhouse) as soon as they come out. I'm adding another EV as soon as it's out (Honda or Infinity). My usage will go up to at least 500 bucks a month, perhaps 600. The solar will generate almost twice the juice I need and the system will be paid off in about 3 years. My bill will be ZERO.

I'm driving, ACing, refrigerating, TV watching and lighting all for free using 100% green juice. It doesn't get any better than that. Solong PG&E. Thank you for the night juice and line maintenance.
 
ILETRIC said:
I'm driving, ACing, refrigerating, TV watching and lighting all for free using 100% green juice. It doesn't get any better than that. Solong PG&E. Thank you for the night juice and line maintenance.

Yeah, I really wish that my house was better situated for solar as I would invest in that at the drop of a hat. I really didn't give it consideration when I purchased the house. I look at the few houses in our area with south facing roofs with envy. My west facing roof is angled slightly towards south, but alas, my neighbor's 3 big poplars and gigantic eucalyptus to the west aren't coming down any time soon (and being a former tree guy I'm not sure I want anything but the euk to be taken down).

That said I've kicked around getting a pole mounted system in the northeast corner of my lot that is sunlit for most of the day. I'm betting that the ROI on a small pole mounted system is horrendous. Maybe, I'll go look around the solar section of this forum...
 
DougMarker said:
glemieux,
The reason people don't do E9B is because in most situations it costs many thousands to get the second meter installed. Additionally, many city and county codes won't allow a second meter even if PG&E is willing (That's my situation.) My E9A seems like it saves quite a bit of money, and it cost nothing to switch from E1.
Doug, do you live in the SF bay area? I was curious about this too, but Alameda county and Berkeley city OK'd it. What with the Bay Area Strategic EV council and CARB being so gung ho about EVs in the Bay area, I'd be surprised if other counties/cities were against a second meter. That said, I guess I shouldn't be surprised when different municipal parties/department don't agree :roll: .
 
No second meter in SF, they think you will have an illegal apartment in your garage. Not that the inspector would notice the difference between an EVSE and an apartment :roll: If PGE changes their rates as feared I may go for E-9C, "C" as in chop off my meter and wire it direct.
 
A little over a month later and I'm back with an update if anyone is interested...

PG&E and my electrician drove away today and the second meter is finally installed! The installation was quite a nightmare from the standpoint of getting PG&E and the Berkeley city inspector together at the appropriate times. There was massive miscommunication somewhere internally for the both of them. PG&E came out a day early to cut the power. Luckily I was running late for work and waved him off before he got set up and thankfully they arrived not too late on the correct day. Then the city inspector, one known for being notoriously bad tempered and unhelpful (as related to me by other electricians and a realtor), showed up only 15 minutes after the power was cut to do the final inspection instead of at the end of the day. He flat out refused to come back and actually filed his report as the work having been done improperly! It wasn't even halfway done! Needless to say, his reputation seems spot on. To top it off, when I called up the city to see if I could get someone back out later, both the admin assistant who took my call and the supervisor straight up yelled at me and accused me of being the problem. The gloves came off then...

After that very frustrating call a very helpful and friendly city inspector (shocker!) came over and left a very detail and laborious note for PG&E approving the work and giving them permission to turn the line back on. Problem was, PG&E had already come and gone that afternoon as scheduled. Calling up PG&E's customer service they said someone was dispatched (as requested by our electrician) and would be there at some time that night, ETA unknown.

That didn't happen. The next morning, after another frustrating call to PG&E's customer service line they told me to call my project manager. He lit a fire under someone and they were out within the hour and had the power back on to the house. Installation finished. Whew!

As much as this was a colossal cluster, the electrician that Ecotality assigned us was fantastic (and not just relative to the service from PG&E and Berkeley's Building and Renovation department). The company is Napa Electric and I highly recommend Brandon, the project manager, and Patrick the electrician, for this work. Brandon was always prompt in returning calls and email, was effusive with information and updates, especially when coordinating the schedule with PG&E and the city, and was the first on the phone to both with all the above problems. Patrick always showed up right on time (awesome as he was coming from Napa) and his workmanship looks great. He easily handled the few last minute requests and questions that we fired at him. Very please with Napa Electric, overall.

Additionally, I do have to give a nod to my PG&E project manager, Terrance. I should have called him last night, instead of trusting the customer service rep. The rep seemed kind of vague on the details; that should have been my clue that it wasn't going to happen as expected. He's also helping us file a claims form to see if we can get some sort of compensation for the inconvenience that not having service during the overnight caused.

Leading up to all this took the bulk of the time between early December and now. The timeline was pretty skewed by the holidays so I'm pretty sure everything went forward as soon as it could have happened. Terrance had PG&E service people out to check the installation location a day or two after I submitted my application. They took pictures and Brandon coordinated with him as to where to install the second meter. Unfortunately, the location of the house meter is now actually violating PG&E's standoff requirements for how far away from other structures and the gas line a meter/panel can be. This and a poorly located gutter downspout, forced us to install the second meter farther away from the existing meter and gas line than I would have liked. I guess I should be grateful that PG&E didn't demand we relocate the old setup as well! At least Brandon didn't charge us extra when this update came down from PG&E after we had signed the work contract.

Now all that's left is making sure I'm really on the E-9B rate. Hopefully that's a slam dunk (comparatively). I'll let you know how that goes when I get my first bill.
 
Spies said:
So what were your total out of pocket costs for the second meter project if you don't mind sharing?

$2672. Ecotality subsidized $1200, so the total cost overall was $3872.

The main bulk of the cost was for the total hardware cost at $2k. There was an additional $500 for the 60 feet of line that had to span between the meter and the EVSE install location, which were on complete opposite corners of the house (first 10 feet is "free", so it was $10/foot). The rest of the cost was travel, permit, admin fee, etc.

My only regret is that I should have had the $2k in hardware broken out in more detail. After seeing the behemoth of a panel that they installed for the second meter I'm thinking they could have gone with something smaller/less expensive.
 
glemieux said:
...the electrician that Ecotality assigned us was fantastic (and not just relative to the service from PG&E and Berkeley's Building and Renovation department). The company is Napa Electric and I highly recommend Brandon, the project manager, and Patrick the electrician, for this work. Brandon was always prompt in returning calls and email, was effusive with information and updates, especially when coordinating the schedule with PG&E and the city, and was the first on the phone to both with all the above problems. Patrick always showed up right on time (awesome as he was coming from Napa) and his workmanship looks great. He easily handled the few last minute requests and questions that we fired at him. Very please with Napa Electric, overall.

Thanks for the tip. I'm in Vallejo and will be looking for an electrician soon; will check these guys out.

I'd love to have a separate meter for TOU. Our AC load in the summer is atrocious so I don't think E9A is the way to go. Too bad it is so expensive to implement a meter. And bureaucracy makes my blood boil so there's that. But, we'll see.
 
Nubo said:
Thanks for the tip. I'm in Vallejo and will be looking for an electrician soon; will check these guys out.

I'd love to have a separate meter for TOU. Our AC load in the summer is atrocious so I don't think E9A is the way to go. Too bad it is so expensive to implement a meter. And bureaucracy makes my blood boil so there's that. But, we'll see.

Glad to help promote a good company, especially after all the crap.

Yeah, we got lucky on our timing for installing the second meter. We had the budget margin and no upgrades to the house on the near horizon (knock on wood). That and the "ROI" on E-9B after doing a rate comparison vs E-9A (and E-1) leaned heavily in favor of E-9B for our usage. Should pay for itself in 2 years. Now I'm just hoping that PG&E doesn't change the rates so drastically that it makes more sense to be on E-9A or what ever they call it. At least if they change to their current proposal this year, I'll still pay off the meter with savings on E-9B; it would just take longer.

You know, I really like Berkeley, but holy crap that was one of the worst customer service experiences I've ever had in dealing with city/county/state/federal government bureaucracy. I'm not sure why Berkeley mandates that inspectors have to stick to a specific section of Berkeley, either. Looks like I'll get this inspector whenever I have to do electrical work. Do other cities do this? If so I almost wish realtors would include this information when a house goes on the market ("Great views, up-and-coming neighborhood, city inspector who isn't a complete asshat!").
 
glemieux said:
Spies said:
So what were your total out of pocket costs for the second meter project if you don't mind sharing?

$2672. Ecotality subsidized $1200, so the total cost overall was $3872.

The main bulk of the cost was for the total hardware cost at $2k. There was an additional $500 for the 60 feet of line that had to span between the meter and the EVSE install location, which were on complete opposite corners of the house (first 10 feet is "free", so it was $10/foot). The rest of the cost was travel, permit, admin fee, etc.

My only regret is that I should have had the $2k in hardware broken out in more detail. After seeing the behemoth of a panel that they installed for the second meter I'm thinking they could have gone with something smaller/less expensive.

Did you pay for the once off PG&E fee for the 2nd meter ? I think it was something in the order of $250.

Anyways, do post up your external panel pics of the 2 turrets. I will try and upload my pics tomorrow.
 
Hi

Anyone from Fremont, CA who has installed the meter for E9-B. I am pretty confused about the whole process.
I got the Blink Charger installed from Ecototality/ Meandel Electric ( the contracting company who was assigned by Ecototality)

It will be great is someone from Fremont has done the work, so i can talk to your personally.

Thanks
Tushar
 
mxp said:
Did you pay for the once off PG&E fee for the 2nd meter ? I think it was something in the order of $250.

Anyways, do post up your external panel pics of the 2 turrets. I will try and upload my pics tomorrow.
Yup, the $250 was really the thing that got the balling moving from PG&Es side.

Here's our setup:

Closeup of the second meter. I forgot to open it up and take a picture of the 2 breaker switches inside.
IMG_1029.JPG


View of the second meter in which you can see the conduit coming from the junction box on the other side of the fence.
IMG_1028.JPG


Other side of the fence and view of the older house meter.
IMG_1030.JPG


Location of the gas meter wrt to the house meter. You can see how close it is to our tool shed.
IMG_1031.JPG


Close-up of the house meter and the junction box.
IMG_1032.JPG
 
Hi
Looks like a good job done to install the second meter. Can you please share the details of the Electrician/ Company which did all the installation for you.

Thanks
 
tschaubal said:
Hi
Looks like a good job done to install the second meter. Can you please share the details of the Electrician/ Company which did all the installation for you.

Thanks
Napa Electric via Ecotality. Details are a few posts above. Ask to speak to Brandon.

Another update: got my first "bill." It's actually not a bill: It's a 5 page print-out breaking down the electrical usage in detail. From 1/30/12 to 2/27/12, we used 212 kWh, which costs us $22.19 (fees and tax included). Raw electricity cost is $16.06. Matches my estimates pretty well. Whew!
 
Back
Top