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EVDRIVER
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Re: BareEVSE - an EVSE circuit for under $5

Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:56 am

I have seen two tiny dogs completely sever the insulation and copper in half on the LEAF 12G wire. Very small dogs. The main point is that an EVSE should be properly designed and tested to meet all the compliance issues. The US is litigious when it comes to blame for any matter small or large. Not to mention many DYI people are clueless and will put 50A plugs on cords that should not have one. When you post such directions in detail you should make full and complete disclosure of all known and possible unknown considerations. I would bet that if you lived in the US and had any assets you would think twice about not making such clear disclaimers. Do not underestimate the stupidity and incompetence of people that are willing to save even a few dollars. I have been in the EV community for a long time and have seen some crazy charging stuff. Having a tech discussion is one thing but providing detailed instructions on building high-voltage supply equipment without better warnings is another. I love to tinker but I also don't like to see people or the EV community getting hurt. It may help if you post your location as well as your first post on this forum was a detailed DIY low-cost charge cord with no introduction, which is fine but a bit odd. As I said before, these diagrams are noting new or special and have been done many times before but usually with consideration. This is not a tech forum, there are people here that amy try this that have no business making such an item. None of this means it's not worth talking about but in full context and disclosure for location and audience.
PS, when someone screws up their EV, which they will, they will still blame you even if you warned them. Not sure if you have been in this position before but it is almost inevitable over time. I have a custom integration business and this stuff happens even when people are informed but today many folks don't want to hear it. Check out the EV Charge America threads. Because your are not accountable from afar does not mean you should be extra responsible in warning people about risks. I am almost certain that if you were part of a local community where you were directly accountable to any negative ramifications you would have posted more cautiously. I would have no issue with your post if your were more clear about the risks and less dismissive based on comparative arguments. Food for thought.

Here is some dog food, dog was the size of handbag and the EVSE was from a LEAF.

Image

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Ingineer
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Leaf Number: 6969
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Re: BareEVSE - an EVSE circuit for under $5

Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:05 pm

Neither the "Bare" EVSE or that European one are compliant with the NEC (National Electrical Code) here in the US. This means you would be in violation if you used such a device.

Here are some snippets:

Code: Select all

NEC 625.18 Interlock:
Electric vehicle supply equipment shall be provided with an interlock that de-energizes the electric vehicle connector and it's cable whenever the electrical connector is uncoupled from the electric vehicle.
Note it specifically states "and it's cable".

Code: Select all

NEC 625.19 Automatic De-Energization of Cable:
The electric vehicle supply equipment or the cable-connector combination of the equipment shall be provided with an automatic means to de-energize the cable conductors and electric vehicle connector upon exposure to strain that could result in either cable rupture or separation of the cable from the electric connector and exposure of live parts. Automatic means to de-energize the cable conductors and electric vehicle connector shall not be required for portable cord-and-plug-connected electric vehicle supply equipment intended for connection to receptacle outlets rated at 125 volts, single phase, 15 and 20 amperes.


Code: Select all

NEC 625.22 Personnel Protection System:
The electric vehicle supply equipment shall have a listed system of protection against electric shock of personnel. The personnel protection system shall be composed of listed personnel protection devices and constructional features. Where cord-and-plug-connected electric vehicle supply equipment is used, the interrupting device of a listed personnel protection system shall be provided and shall be an integral part of the attachment plug or shall be located in the power supply cable not more than 300 mm (12 in.) from the attachment plug.


Code: Select all

NEC 625.25 Loss of Primary Source:
Means shall be provided such that, upon loss of voltage from the utility or other electrical system(s), energy cannot be back fed through the electric vehicle and the supply equipment to the premises wiring system unless permitted by 625.26.


You cannot avoid a relay, nor can you put the relays in the handle and still be code-compliant. Anyone selling such a device in the US will likely get their pants sued off. Even if someone builds their own and then has some problem, such as a fire, they may be at risk of having insurance coverage denied. CE compliance may be enough in Europe, but has no merit here in the US.

-Phil
Easily Learn Electricity HERE! - - - - Website: http://evseupgrade.com/ - - - - Like us on Facebook: EVSE Upgrade

BetterLeaf
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Re: BareEVSE - an EVSE circuit for under $5

Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:18 am

Ingineer wrote:

Code: Select all

NEC 625.19 Automatic De-Energization of Cable:

Code: Select all

 Automatic means to de-energize the cable conductors and electric vehicle connector shall not be required for portable cord-and-plug-connected electric vehicle supply equipment intended for connection to receptacle outlets rated at 125 volts, single phase, 15 and 20 amperes.



Thanks for pointing that out. I really appreciate that.
I certainly do not condone anything that is illegal or violates the local electrical code.

I will revise my initial post to warn that the US electrical code only allows EVSEs rated up to 125V 20A to be used without a relay located at the mains connection.

Ingineer wrote: Connecting power to an asleep charger defeats the internal pre-charge system and if this happens, it can be catastrophic!


Would you be so as kind as to substantiate that statement with some technical insights. Many thanks.

QueenBee
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Leaf Number: 2062
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Re: BareEVSE - an EVSE circuit for under $5

Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:59 am

BetterLeaf wrote:
Ingineer wrote:

Code: Select all

NEC 625.19 Automatic De-Energization of Cable:

Code: Select all

 Automatic means to de-energize the cable conductors and electric vehicle connector shall not be required for portable cord-and-plug-connected electric vehicle supply equipment intended for connection to receptacle outlets rated at 125 volts, single phase, 15 and 20 amperes.



Thanks for pointing that out. I really appreciate that.
I certainly do not condone anything that is illegal or violates the local electrical code.

I will revise my initial post to warn that the US electrical code only allows EVSEs rated up to 125V 20A to be used without a relay located at the mains connection.


I'm not an expert at reading NEC but I don't think you can take it out of context like that. I think that exemption only applies to the requirement of automatic de-energization with regards to strain or cable rupture/separation.

BetterLeaf
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Re: BareEVSE - an EVSE circuit for under $5

Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:09 am

QueenBee wrote: I'm not an expert at reading NEC but I don't think you can take it out of context like that. I think that exemption only applies to the requirement of automatic de-energization with regards to strain or cable rupture/separation.


Yes, I think you might have a point. Thank you.

But under this 625.13(A) NEC proposal (which I could not determine if it has already passed) and the 2008 NEC (says the same thing in that regard) I think 125V is OK because it does not need to follow 625.18, 19, and 29 which Phil qouted:

Code: Select all

625.13 Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment Connection. Electric vehicle supply equipment shall be permitted to be cord
and plug connected to the premises wiring system in accordance with ONE of the following:
(A) Electric vehicle supply equipment intended for connection to receptacle outlets rated at 125 volts, single phase, 15
and 20 amperes.
(B) Electric vehicle supply equipment that is rated 250 volts maximum and complies with all of the following:
(1) It is part of a system identified and listed meeting the requirements of 625.18, 625.19, and 625.29


Please correct me if this interpretation is incorrect.

It would really make sense for the local electrical code to at least allow the voltage and amperage that people are commonly using with regular extension cords to be connected directly.

jclemens
Posts: 168
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Delivery Date: 02 Nov 2011
Leaf Number: 003748
Location: Mississauga
Contact: Website

Re: BareEVSE - an EVSE circuit for under $5

Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:45 pm

I have also been developing a similar low cost EVSE. I have built a working prototype with relays and have been using it regularly, the relays enable only when the car requests, and disable when the plug is removed from the car.
I was waiting until I get a few v1.0 units built and tested before sharing my plan, they will be very similar to the chargeAMPS version, but it seems BetterLeaf beat me to it.
I started with a 555 timer, but I found that it was not stable enough, I sourced all my components to remain stable with large temperature swings in mind. I ended up using a quad op-amp, temperature rated as low as -40C I think.
I also will never use electrical tape, my proto is encapsulated in epoxy made for electronics.

My initial experiments showed that plugging a live line into the leaf regardless of pilot signal did not result in charging, rather, an error came up, I decided that relays were mandatory.

I am not following NEC or anything else of that matter, my criteria is based on the following
is a feature required to charge the car?
yes? keep it.
no? leave it out.
this includes GFCI being left out as my intended application is at work where the 120V 20A outlets already have GFCI.
as for safety concerns about live cables, they are unfounded as it is the exact same risk in any other extension cord.

I will eventually have a version that I think I can sell that will have GCFI as an option, will be 50ft long, it will be intended for L1 use and be about half the cost as any commercial EVSE. It also will not be damaged if the end user decides to try 240V for whatever reason.
I will also have a version with a switch to be able to control the pilot duty signal, all the electronics and relays are housed in the charger head. (no ugly box on the wire, with the exception of the GFCI if added on)

I am currently debating if I should make it open source or not. I guess it depends on the feedback I get from locals who I will get to test my v1.0 units.
Interested in a j1772 dummy inlet to hang your EVSE when not charging?
PM me for details. or see http://erroneus.myevblog.com/buy-plastic-parts-here/

brett701
Posts: 21
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Delivery Date: 01 Apr 2013
Location: St. Louis Missouri

Re: BareEVSE - an EVSE circuit for under $5

Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:07 pm

Does Ingineer do what is described in the ebook that is on ebay?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nissan-Leaf-EVSE-Charger-Conversion-Handbook-/330785519678?pt=US_Adapters&hash=item4d045a783e#viTabs_0

If not. What is different?

thehelix112
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:31 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jun 2013
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: BareEVSE - an EVSE circuit for under $5

Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:51 pm

jclemens wrote:I have also been developing a similar low cost EVSE. I have built a working prototype with relays and have been using it regularly, the relays enable only when the car requests, and disable when the plug is removed from the car.
I was waiting until I get a few v1.0 units built and tested before sharing my plan, they will be very similar to the chargeAMPS version, but it seems BetterLeaf beat me to it.
I started with a 555 timer, but I found that it was not stable enough, I sourced all my components to remain stable with large temperature swings in mind. I ended up using a quad op-amp, temperature rated as low as -40C I think.
I also will never use electrical tape, my proto is encapsulated in epoxy made for electronics.

My initial experiments showed that plugging a live line into the leaf regardless of pilot signal did not result in charging, rather, an error came up, I decided that relays were mandatory.

I am not following NEC or anything else of that matter, my criteria is based on the following
is a feature required to charge the car?
yes? keep it.
no? leave it out.
this includes GFCI being left out as my intended application is at work where the 120V 20A outlets already have GFCI.
as for safety concerns about live cables, they are unfounded as it is the exact same risk in any other extension cord.

I will eventually have a version that I think I can sell that will have GCFI as an option, will be 50ft long, it will be intended for L1 use and be about half the cost as any commercial EVSE. It also will not be damaged if the end user decides to try 240V for whatever reason.
I will also have a version with a switch to be able to control the pilot duty signal, all the electronics and relays are housed in the charger head. (no ugly box on the wire, with the exception of the GFCI if added on)

I am currently debating if I should make it open source or not. I guess it depends on the feedback I get from locals who I will get to test my v1.0 units.



I am struggling to think of a downside to making it open source, unless you are planning on selling it.
If you open it up, you will get all sorts of feedback. It'll be on you to differentiate the bullshit from the gems, but undoubtedly there will be some gems in there (even if hidden under the aforementioned). The feedback will allow you to improve your design, and will give others more confidence in your design, hence widening your audience

So +1 for opening up your designs!

Dave

8bits
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Joined: Sat May 04, 2013 4:37 am

Re: BareEVSE - an EVSE circuit for under $5

Sat May 04, 2013 4:51 am

BetterLeaf, THANK YOU FOR SHARING!!

I am a Mercedes Smart Electric car owner and the EVSE that came with it doesn't work on my garage, even after the electrician told everything is ok. But the EVSE works on others garages.

I am looking to make a cheap and simple EVSE for me, and I want something OpenSource. I mean cheap mostly in time and risk to build it and have it working. OpenEVSE would be ok for me if I could buy it as any other product, if I could get it assembled and tested, have it in 5 days in my home. Since it is not the current state of OpenEVSE, I need to wait a lot or build it by myself, so, your BareEVSE is cheap in time and simplicity - that's what I am looking for.

Also latest OpenEVSE is BIG, uses an LCD that I would not use most of the time - I am looking for someting very small (just as you did) and that works with the same current - maybe no more than some little switchs to choose from 4 different current values.

Again, thank you for sharing, you helped me a lot! Thanks.

Pictures of my Mercedes Smart Electric car.

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EVDRIVER
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Re: BareEVSE - an EVSE circuit for under $5

Sat May 04, 2013 6:53 am

8bits wrote:BetterLeaf, THANK YOU FOR SHARING!!

I am a Mercedes Smart Electric car owner and the EVSE that came with it doesn't work on my garage, even after the electrician told everything is ok. But the EVSE works on others garages.

I am looking to make a cheap and simple EVSE for me, and I want something OpenSource. I mean cheap mostly in time and risk to build it and have it working. OpenEVSE would be ok for me if I could buy it as any other product, if I could get it assembled and tested, have it in 5 days in my home. Since it is not the current state of OpenEVSE, I need to wait a lot or build it by myself, so, your BareEVSE is cheap in time and simplicity - that's what I am looking for.

Also latest OpenEVSE is BIG, uses an LCD that I would not use most of the time - I am looking for someting very small (just as you did) and that works with the same current - maybe no more than some little switchs to choose from 4 different current values.

Again, thank you for sharing, you helped me a lot! Thanks.

Pictures of my Mercedes Smart Electric car.


I would consider making an open EVSE or buy something that is made properly. Since you are not in the USA you don't have to worry about the liability and code violations this presents but it lacks basic common sense design and safety. I know products are expensive there but you may have better options. Also, reliability is something to consider as well.

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