GFCI or Not?

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GRA

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I know it was discussed frequently in the past, but I can't remember if GFCI'd L1 receptacles were/were not recommended for use with the typical portable EVSE. Need to know for Yosemite proposal (see http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&p=470450#p470450)

Thanks.
 
Haven't read your link but I'd say no, because the EVSE is supposed to already have it. And, the vehicle could cause an outlet's GFCI to trip.

Examples:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=4623
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=87367#p87367
 
FYI, the NFPA members are currently voting on a TIA for the 2020 NEC that would require GFCI on all receptacles intended for EVSEs that are rated at 150 volts to ground or less and 50 amps or less. See

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/AboutTheCodes/70/70_A2019_NEC-P12_Log1242_tiaballot.pdf

which I found on the page:

http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards?mode=code&code=70&tab=nextedition

I believe the idea behind the proposal is that for portable EVSEs, GFCI built into the EVSE is insufficient, because the user will be regularly plugging and unplugging the EVSE's cord. Versus fixed in placed EVSEs that may be cord-and-plug connected, but the cord and plug connection is rarely interacted with.

BTW, not sure what your proposal is concerning, but the NEC 210.8(B)(4) already requires all 15 amp and 20 amp 120 volt receptacles installed outdoors to be GFCI protected.

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
FYI, the NFPA members are currently voting on a TIA for the 2020 NEC that would require GFCI on all receptacles intended for EVSEs that are rated at 150 volts to ground or less and 50 amps or less. See

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/AboutTheCodes/70/70_A2019_NEC-P12_Log1242_tiaballot.pdf

which I found on the page:

http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards?mode=code&code=70&tab=nextedition

I believe the idea behind the proposal is that for portable EVSEs, GFCI built into the EVSE is insufficient, because the user will be regularly plugging and unplugging the EVSE's cord. Versus fixed in placed EVSEs that may be cord-and-plug connected, but the cord and plug connection is rarely interacted with.

BTW, not sure what your proposal is concerning, but the NEC 210.8(B)(4) already requires all 15 amp and 20 amp 120 volt receptacles installed outdoors to be GFCI protected.

Cheers, Wayne
Yeah, that's what I thought, but IIRR there was a lot of discussion early on with people reporting issues with their Nissan and maybe Volt portable EVSEs not working well with GFCIs. If used these will definitely be outdoor receptacles, and if GFCIs don't play well with EVSEs but are required for outdoor receptacles, I won't recommend them. It's a question of providing the maximum number of L1 charging stations for the lowest price using a bunch of 5-15 or 20Rs, versus providing fewer but more powerful L2s with J1772s, or a mix of the two. Also, as it's inside a National Park NPS is the permitting authority and can do pretty much whatever they want, although they generally adhere to the NEC.

cwerdna's links seem to show that there are some GFCIs that are designed for compatibility with EVSEs so they don't suffer nuisance tripping.
 
cwerdna said:
Haven't read your link but I'd say no, because the EVSE is supposed to already have it. And, the vehicle could cause an outlet's GFCI to trip.

Examples:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=4623
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=87367#p87367
Thanks for those, those kinds of issues were what I was thinking of (and couldn't find when doing my own search on 'GFCI').
 
FWIW, I'm personally hesitant to charge using my L1 EVSE in non-secure parking areas if I have to leave my car. Someone could come by and steal it either for the unit or just for the copper. In the very rare instances where I L1 charge at a far away (for me now) building in underground (reasonably) secured parking, I still use a padlock on the J1772 handle in addition to turning on the Leaf's (easily defeated) charging lock.

I say reasonably only because potentially over 1000 people have legitimate access (employees of my work and another company + other misc staff like janitors, security, caterers, etc.) to that garage and often during business hours, the metal gate is left open, so someone could walk past the wooden swinging bar to get into that garage.

In totally non-secure areas, in my book, it's not worth worth the 10s of cents to single $s of electricity to risk my several hundred $ to replace L1 EVSE.

If there are cost consideration in terms of wiring, electrical instructure, etc., maybe an L1 EVSE like http://www.powerpostevse.com/products.html might be better. Or maybe you could get something with a quality low cost L1 or L2 EVSE integrated into it?
 
GRA said:
Yeah, that's what I thought, but IIRR there was a lot of discussion early on with people reporting issues with their Nissan and maybe Volt portable EVSEs not working well with GFCIs. If used these will definitely be outdoor receptacles, and if GFCIs don't play well with EVSEs but are required for outdoor receptacles, I won't recommend them.
If by "them" you mean GFCIs, they're not optional for 120V 15-amp and 20-amp receptacles. I would find it hard to believe the National Park Service is going to intentionally skip a safety device mandated by the NEC.

I didn't check the threads linked to above, but if I recall some EVSEs trip a GFCI when doing their ground continuity verification test. That's a design flaw in the EVSE, I believe that OpenEVSE had to tweak their ground continuity verification to avoid doing that.

If that is the only issue, it is possible that some GFCIs are more stringent than the minimum required by the standard, and that a particular brand of GFCI might adhere only to the standard minimum, and thus be less likely to trip on a poorly designed EVSE. So that could help.

What you can't do under the NEC is substitute a higher level of allowable ground fault current, e.g. the 30ma trip threshold of GFPE. GFCI means a device that trips at 4-6 ma of ground fault current.

Cheers, Wayne
 
FWIW, long ago when I used to sometimes charge my former leased '13 Leaf on the 120 volt outlet under the corrugated metal door of the Chargepoint CT21xx series stations (http://www.chargepoint.com/support-guides/) w/my L1 EVSE plugged in, I would sometimes receive messages like this:
Your vehicle has temporarily stopped charging at (the station name) because of a Ground Fault. This type of event may indicate faulty circuitry or wiring, or a bad connector in the charging station or in the vehicle. For your safety, the station stops delivering power to the vehicle automatically, but will retry after 15 minutes. If the station isn't able to resume charging after three attempts, it will stop trying. Please contact ChargePoint Customer Support at 1-888-758-4389 or the manufacturer of the vehicle if you receive this notification again.
IIRC, someone I know who works for Chargepoint suggested I get my dealer to check the amount of leakage current. (He has an '11 or '12 Leaf himself.) I didn't bother.
 
cwerdna said:
FWIW, I'm personally hesitant to charge using my L1 EVSE in non-secure parking areas if I have to leave my car. Someone could come by and steal it either for the unit or just for the copper. In the very rare instances where I L1 charge at a far away (for me now) building in underground (reasonably) secured parking, I still use a padlock on the J1772 handle in addition to turning on the Leaf's (easily defeated) charging lock.

I say reasonably only because potentially over 1000 people have legitimate access (employees of my work and another company + other misc staff like janitors, security, caterers, etc.) to that garage and often during business hours, the metal gate is left open, so someone could walk past the wooden swinging bar to get into that garage.

In totally non-secure areas, in my book, it's not worth worth the 10s of cents to single $s of electricity to risk my several hundred $ to replace L1 EVSE.

If there are cost consideration in terms of wiring, electrical instructure, etc., maybe an L1 EVSE like http://www.powerpostevse.com/products.html might be better. Or maybe you could get something with a quality low cost L1 or L2 EVSE integrated into it?
Security is an issue which I've considered and will discuss in my recommendations, although generally less of a problem in National Parks as there's so many more convenient places for thieves to operate, and most people are there for vacation rather than crime (outside of the Valley, which is the most city-like area of the park, and which tends to see most of the drug/alcohol related issues); car break-ins are more likely due to ursine than human smash-and-grab thieves. :D The ultimate answer is to move towards embedded wireless as soon as the installed base in cars is high enough, but that's likely to be 5-10 years away. It probably comes down to free L1 (as installing and maintaining a payment system is likely not cost effective for them) versus pay L2. I'm aiming for one or the other, or a mix of both types in a few areas. The locations I'm thinking of recommending L1 are long-term overnight lodging/camping areas, generally somewhat separate from day use areas, and hopefully that will provide some added security.

The one other advantage I see of 'bring your own EVSE' L1s is that people who are concerned about the theft potential are unlikely to hog the stations, but will pack up and move as soon as they've got enough charge. 'Free' electricity almost always leads to abuse, requiring monitoring and policing, and I'd like to avoid the need for them, aiming for the practical minimum of 'law enforcement' in keeping with the park's ethos.
 
Most EVSE's have built in 20Ma GFCI's. Almost all of them will also work fine on household 5Ma GFCI's. Early OpenEVSE's would trip household GFCI's but the detection dropping resistors were changed and they are OK now.
 
Nissan 120-volt EVSEs (both 2011 and 2015) work fine with GFCI. Any 120-volt cord/plug-connected EVSE should not be used if it will not function properly when plugged in to a standard GFCI. As Wayne noted, all 15- and 20-ampere 120-volt outdoor receptacles are required to have GFCI protection. My Aerovironment 240-volt hard-wired 30-ampere EVSE will instantly trip a 2-pole GFCI breaker, but both of my upgraded 2011 Nissan EVSEs (upgraded by EVSE Upgrade) work fine with either 120-volt or 240-volt GFCI-protected circuits.

Gerry
 
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