arnis
Posts: 742
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:21 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Charging on 110V - what goes where?

Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:05 am

Please educate me. I'm from EU so I can't try it out myself :lol:

First of all, is it 110V or 120V? It appears that it should be 120V. So why some call it 110V, voltage drop?
What is the real voltage people get while charging.

Second question: how much it is possible to get from that voltage/socket?
In US Leaf has different portable EVSE compared to EU version, what is the amperage it is rated for?
Is it possible to get more from, lets say, Teslas portable EVSE?

And last, most interesting:
So if we know EVSE input voltage and input amperage, we get some exact
power that is going in. Lets say 110V and 12A. That is 1320W.
What does LeafSpy show? graph tab (two lines) and V and A rating on 4th tab.

I want to know parasitic load Leaf has but it is harder/less precise to measure at 3000W charging rate.
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

91040
Posts: 948
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:36 pm
Delivery Date: 06 May 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Charging on 110V - what goes where?

Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:36 am

120/240 VAC is the standard in the USA. Long ago, it was 110/220VAC.

Typically, 120VAC circuits are either 15 or 20A.
1st Capacity Bar loss 30k mi 16.25mo 2nd- 49k mi 25.5mo 51.5Ah
3rd- 73k mi 36.5mo 46.9Ah 71% SOH 50.9Hx 4th- 86.5k mi 43mo 42.61Ah 64% SOH 43.79Hx
5th- 101k mi 50.5mo 38.38Ah 58% SOH 37.02Hx Replaced Battery 9/28/15 104.2k mi 36.13Ah

jjeff
Posts: 1455
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:10 am
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 422121
Location: MSP MN

Re: Charging on 110V - what goes where?

Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:56 pm

Stock US Leaf EVSEs(Panasonic) have a rated output of 12a @120v(which some people call 110v) I've seen it drop as low as 112v under extreme load but it should start out at 120v.
120v outlets are generally 15a or 20a although special non standard(although standard for campers) go up to 30a @ 120v. Note in the US everything is overrated(in more ways than one). What I mean by that is a 15a circuit is only supposed to supply 12a continuous, a 20a supply is only supposed to supply 16a continuous, a 30a circuit 24a continuous, etc. most everything in the US must be de-rated to 80% for continuous use(I believe more than 3hrs use??). From my understanding Europe is not this way, IOW 16a=16a continuous or intermittent.
Oh a 6.6kwh Leaf can pull up to 27.5a at either 120v or 240v, 120v uses one wire with 120v to ground or neutral, 240v is 2 120v wires but 240v between the two hots. To get these increased amperages one needs to purchase an aftermarket EVSE or upgrade their stock Leaf EVSE.
I can't answer your last question as I don't use Leafspy regularly and it's not hooked up right now.
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
GE Durastation 30a

arnis
Posts: 742
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:21 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: Charging on 110V - what goes where?

Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:44 pm

So for most EV-s 110V charging really means up to 120V (which very likely drops 2-5V due to EV charging) at exactly 12A.
Therefore 118*12 around 1,4kW draw from the grid.

Now we need to verify "normal" voltage drop due to 12A load on regular cables people have at their homes.
And find out how much of that 1.4kW gets in the battery.

Is it possible that some homes do not have 240V available at all? Are there such power meters in use?
Or there are houses where no 240V plugs are available but in the main box two phases are present.
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

jjeff
Posts: 1455
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:10 am
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 422121
Location: MSP MN

Re: Charging on 110V - what goes where?

Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:30 pm

arnis wrote:Is it possible that some homes do not have 240V available at all? Are there such power meters in use?

I believe some very old homes might just have 120v but every home I've owned or seen has 2 120v feeds for 240v devices.

arnis wrote:Or there are houses where no 240V plugs are available but in the main box two phases are present.

Yes, 240v is really only used for Central Air Conditioners(generally not window mount but larger ones can be 240v), Electric Stoves, Electric Dryers, Electric Water heaters and larger power tools like large air compressors, welders, etc. and many of the things I listed are hard wired without a plug, we have many different styles of 240v plugs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_connector
Go down about 2 pages to the chart on the left, it shows diagrams of various plugs used in N. America.
The chance of running into a 240v outlet in the wild(out and about) for EV charging are very slim, most likely scenario would be someone with a welder or stove in their garage and even then there are so many different types of outlets one would have to carry lots of different adapters, I probably have 10 different ones I carry around but have really only used a couple a couple of times.
My most used "240" V charging scenario in the wild is using a Quick220(I know there we go with 220 again :lol: ) device. It has 2 120v plugs, wire and a single 240v outlet. You plug it into 2 separate 120v outlets that are on opposite phases(won't do anything if they are on the same phase) and it gives you 240v in a pinch. I only use this device if I know the outlets are basically dedicated and not in use by some other large current draw device.
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
GE Durastation 30a

smkettner
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Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Charging on 110V - what goes where?

Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:21 pm

arnis wrote:I want to know parasitic load Leaf has but it is harder/less precise to measure at 3000W charging rate.

I understand charging overhead is about 300 watts at any input level. Not sure what the charger efficiency is.
L1 is really slow but if you have the time you can drive maybe 50 miles per day average.

Yes virtually every home in USA has 240 volt split phase system. Most actual 240 volt circuits are special purpose and dedicated to specific equipment such as an electric stove or air conditioner. Most homes will need a new circuit added for L2 charging.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV

arnis
Posts: 742
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:21 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: Charging on 110V - what goes where?

Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:10 pm

smkettner wrote:L1 is really slow but if you have the time you can drive maybe 50 miles per day average.


It's not the L1 that is very slow. Problem is the voltage. In EU L1 is 230V. Nissan chose to limit charging to 10A.
Anything more would be too convenient so people would never install dedicated EVSE :lol:
So in EU Leaf charges at 230V*10A=2300W, minus 300W vampire is around 2kW charging rate (1kW in US).
In EU 6,6kW charger is not popular with Leafs. I suppose reason nr1 is that heavy users have 3-phase connection.
And getting 32A from one phase is very very rare. My average sized home has 25A per phase limit (main breaker).
And reason nr2 is that with 3.3kW charger Leaf can EASILY recharge during the night.
(I'm the perfect example that more than 3,3kW is not necessary, 20 kilomiles per year).


Tesla AFAIK has 13A limit for the smallest plug.

European main home socket can handle 16A... BUT, due to ignorant people EV manufacturers preferred less
current. Usually there are multiple (2-10) sockets per one chain of cable from one circuit breaker.
Circuit breaker is rated for whatever cable is used after that breaker. 1.5mm wire 16A, 2.5mm wire 25A, 4.0mm 32A.
Due to the fact that often 16A breaker is used, plugging in 16A portable EVSE would mean that almost nothing
else can be plugged in. Making that whole chain of sockets useless. Installing a dedicated line for portable EVSE
doesn't make sense. This is why most choose installing a stationary EVSE and connecting that directly into main panel.
I have my Leaf on 16A breaker but 2.5mm wire (to minimize losses). 3kW per hour effective charge, 7h*3=full 24kWh battery.

Most homes will need a new circuit added for L2 charging.

New connection from main panel, one wire from L1 and second from L2. And a breaker too (or two breakers as both are live?)
Where is L3 guys, you can't have L1 and L2 without L3 :lol:
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

jjeff
Posts: 1455
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:10 am
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 422121
Location: MSP MN

Re: Charging on 110V - what goes where?

Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:39 pm

arnis wrote:New connection from main panel, one wire from L1 and second from L2. And a breaker too (or two breakers as both are live?)
Where is L3 guys, you can't have L1 and L2 without L3 :lol:

A 240v breaker is a single breaker that trips both hots at once, just tripping one would be a safety issue and produce only partial power.
L3 is basically only for commercial distribution. I don't personally know if the source to a L3 EVSE is 480v 3 phase, 208 3 phase or even 208 single phase but I'd have to believe it came from 3 phase power but again I don't know for a fact.
arnis, 208v is basically commercial 3 phase's version of 240v single phase power, basically anything that can run on 240v can also operate on 208v but in the case of our EVSEs will charge slower and in the case of most heaters, heat less. 480v commercial 3 phase power has 277v to ground from any of the 3 hots but can't be used in place or 208/240v as it surpasses the maximum voltage acceptable for our residential EVSEs.
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
GE Durastation 30a

arnis
Posts: 742
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:21 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: Charging on 110V - what goes where?

Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:44 pm

Most likely power companies distribute phase loads between different clients. So house 1 gets L1 L2,
house 2 gets L2 L3, house 3 gets L3 L1...

Ok understood. Now we need LeafSpy data.
I tried with my portable and battery got 1.6-1.8kW effective charge. I also saw a massive voltage drop, more than 15V.
Most likely due to 1.5mm wire that is pretty long, 20m, 200dm, 2 000cm, 20 000mm, holy cow :lol:

Also whoever gets the results - would be awesome to know the real voltage at EVSE plug/socket during charge cycle.
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

smkettner
Posts: 7004
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:13 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Charging on 110V - what goes where?

Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:25 pm

arnis wrote:
smkettner wrote:L1 is really slow but if you have the time you can drive maybe 50 miles per day average.


It's not the L1 that is very slow. Problem is the voltage. In EU L1 is 230V. Nissan chose to limit charging to 10A.

Over here 230v is considered L2 even at the minimum 6 amps.

And I can see it considered L1 on European system since it is still on one line and a neutral. Over here 460v or three phase is crazy talk for commercial only with fees to go with it.

I would love to have three phase at home. Lots of stuff would run so much better such as air conditioning on a natural three phase.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV

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