edatoakrun
Posts: 4175
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
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Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:50 am

Sounds like EVgo might be planning to skip interim increases in kW from the ~50 at its existing stations, increasing charge rates all the way to ~350 kWh (and with multi-BEV charging capacity able to support a significant level of traffic) at least on some high-traffic corridors.

Today's press release:

EVgo Breaks Ground On The First Public High-Power Electric Vehicle Charging Station, Connecting Los Angeles And Las Vegas

EVgo, operator of the nation's largest network of public electric vehicle (EV) fast charging stations, today announced it has broken ground on the very first High-Power U.S. public charging station in Baker, California, home of the World's Tallest Thermometer. EVgo is turning up the heat on EV charging with a station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350kW. The new chargers being installed are seven times faster than any fast chargers currently available and represent a new level of convenience for EV charging.

When complete, EVgo's High-Power charging station at the site of World's Tallest Thermometer, will link Southern California to Las Vegas, furthering EVgo's position as the leading national fast charging provider. The High-Power Charger complements EVgo's existing fast charging stations throughout California and the U.S., allowing EV drivers to travel with confidence.

"EVgo is laser focused on the needs of our customers, and they want faster charging at more locations," said Terry O'Day, Vice President, Product Strategy and Market Development at EVgo. "The World's Tallest Thermometer High-Power station is an important step for the EV industry, as this new standard will open the EV market to even wider audiences. When this station opens to the public next year, EV drivers will enjoy a new level of freedom."

The World's Tallest Thermometer High-Power station will include four High-Power DC fast chargers capable of up to 350kW each, and can accommodate expansion of up to eight chargers in the future. The site will include a solar canopy to help power the chargers, as well as backup batteries. The High-Power chargers will be compatible with the two protocol standards used by all EV manufacturers, CCS and CHAdeMO. EVgo expects the project to be completed by June 2017...

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases ... 78564.html
no condition is permanent

SageBrush
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operarational by 6/17?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:57 am

Some 20 - 30 miles range per minute. Wow
I wonder what voltages are offered
I would never let a LEAF near that thing, but an EV with proper cooling would be brilliant.

Current Teslas have a Chademo adapter ...
This could be the technology that VW should spend it's $2B of diesel penalty money towards
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

webeleafowners
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:37 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Oct 2015
Location: Okanagan Valley British Columbia

Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operarational by 6/17?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:06 am

SageBrush wrote:Some 20 - 30 miles range per minute. Wow
I wonder what voltages are offered
I would never let a LEAF near that thing, but an EV with proper cooling would be brilliant.

Current Teslas have a Chademo adapter ...
This could be the technology that VW should spend it's $2B of diesel penalty money towards



I thought about that. Is there something onboard the leaf that would limit the charge rate to something the leaf could handle. That way we could still use the facility.
2015 Smart Electric Drive convertible.
2016 Nissan Leaf SV 30KW
EV only Family...well except for the big diesel motorhome. :shock:

edatoakrun
Posts: 4175
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operarational by 6/17?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:12 am

Wannabeleafowner wrote:...Is there something onboard the leaf that would limit the charge rate to something the leaf could handle. That way we could still use the facility.

EVERY DC-capable BEV has a battery management system that controls DC Charge rates.

So every BEV that has DC CHAdeMO or CCS capability (Teslas, only if they have an adapter) will be able to charge.

And don't panic, it won't hurt your LEAF's pack any more (or charge it any faster) than any ~50 kWh DC charger would.

Of course, some BEV drivers have such severe battery anxiety, that they are afraid to charge with DC at all...
no condition is permanent

webeleafowners
Posts: 217
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:37 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Oct 2015
Location: Okanagan Valley British Columbia

Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operarational by 6/17?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:42 am

edatoakrun wrote:
Wannabeleafowner wrote:...Is there something onboard the leaf that would limit the charge rate to something the leaf could handle. That way we could still use the facility.

EVERY DC-capable BEV has a battery management system that controls DC Charge rates.

So every BEV that has DC CHAdeMO or CCS capability (Teslas, only if they have an adapter) will be able to charge.

And don't panic, it won't hurt your LEAF's pack any more (or charge it any faster) than any ~50 kWh DC charger would.

Of course, some BEV drivers have such severe battery anxiety, that they are afraid to charge with DC at all...


Thanks for the info. Good to know. So much to learn about these things.
2015 Smart Electric Drive convertible.
2016 Nissan Leaf SV 30KW
EV only Family...well except for the big diesel motorhome. :shock:

SageBrush
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operarational by 6/17?

Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:18 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
Wannabeleafowner wrote:Of course, some BEV drivers have such severe battery anxiety, that they are afraid to charge with DC at all...
That would not be me. I figure a couple times a year is fine ;-)

And joking aside, at least after a DC charge the car is liking moving again rather than stewing.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

arnis
Posts: 668
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:21 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:42 pm

350kW at 1000V. This was not mentioned. At 400V it is just 140kW. Slightly faster than Supercharger.
BUT that speed is only possible with liquid cooled pins in the plug. Without that extra it is less than 100kW.

1000V packs are big questionmark on small vehicles due to extra complexity.

Also charging at 350kW is not possible due to thermal limitations (car is not capable to extract heat
at that speed from the pack). Imagine at 90% efficiency 35kW of heat. Not going to work.
Even with absurdly massive AC compressor there is not enough surface area for radiators.

I've not even heard of patents about getting heat out of the car.
With my professional opinion, 350kW charging speed is not going to happen with normal cars (at least not within a decade).
I highly doubt 200kW (at least 10 minutes) will work within 5 years.

With buses, semis, ships - definitely possible.

Also another limitation of the lithium chemistry itself. 100kWh battery can do around 120kW (Tesla).
200kWh pack could do around 240kW. But 100kWh pack (no matter the voltage) will not charge at 240kW rate without
MASSIVE improvement. Voltage per cell would tip safe limit instantly.
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

SageBrush
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:33 pm

arnis wrote:350kW at 1000V. This was not mentioned. At 400V it is just 140kW. Slightly faster than Supercharger.
BUT that speed is only possible with liquid cooled pins in the plug. Without that extra it is less than 100kW.

Also another limitation of the lithium chemistry itself. 100kWh battery can do around 120kW (Tesla).
200kWh pack could do around 240kW. But 100kWh pack (no matter the voltage) will not charge at 240kW rate without
MASSIVE improvement. Voltage per cell would tip safe limit instantly.
I gather that newer Tesla SC has liquid cooling but most the network does not and it charges 60 kWh Tesla cars at up to 120 kW just fine. Liquid cooling gets them up to ~ 140 kW, for all Tesla cars.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

wwhitney
Posts: 619
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:10 am
Delivery Date: 01 Apr 2011
Location: Berkeley, CA

Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:11 pm

arnis wrote:Also charging at 350kW is not possible due to thermal limitations (car is not capable to extract heat
at that speed from the pack). Imagine at 90% efficiency 35kW of heat.

The inefficiencies of AC to DC conversion occur off board. So I believe that the DC charging of the battery is 98% to 99% efficient. At 98% efficient that would mean the amount of heat generated during a 60 kWh charge is 1.2 kWh. If the pack weighs 400 kg and has a heat capacity of 1.0 J / gC (a guess, iron is 0.45 and water is 4.2), that would raise the pack temperature 11C without any cooling.

Cheers, Wayne

arnis
Posts: 668
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:21 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:53 am

Incorrect. Both of you.

Tesla tried liquid cooled cables, not pins. 60kWh Tesla has never charged at 120kW rate.

There is conversation inefficiency from AC to DC but there is also inefficiency in the pack itself.
Or you think Leaf battery heats up with magic during 30 minute DC charge cycle? :roll:
Does your car do this sound when you cool the cabin at 1.2kW AC?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D18gsJgYfd4
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

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