powersurge
Posts: 753
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:24 am
Delivery Date: 06 Dec 2014
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:44 am

Somehow, I cannot imagine that a 350kw charger will be in our lives for a VERY long time. Isn't this pie-in-the-sky fantasy?

Darn, we are still at 6.6kw charging... How could anyone even imagine that we will be able to charge our Leafs in 2 minutes in the near future????.....

Yeah and I want a Jet Pack to go to work..

arnis
Posts: 743
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:21 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:59 am

As a charger, why not. We have more transportation devices than only cars. How about charging city bus while driver is
having a workday break for one hour. Or a ferry with 300-500kWh battery pack.
Engineers ask different questions - how to charge battery much faster (110kWh battery at 330kW speed for example).
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

sendler2112
Posts: 216
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:05 pm
Delivery Date: 07 Jan 2016
Location: Syracuse, NY USA

Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:39 pm

powersurge wrote:Somehow, I cannot imagine that a 350kw charger will be in our lives for a VERY long time. Isn't this pie-in-the-sky fantasy?

Darn, we are still at 6.6kw charging... How could anyone even imagine that we will be able to charge our Leafs in 2 minutes in the near future????.....

Yeah and I want a Jet Pack to go to work..

Tesla charges at 110kW now. Porsche will be charging at 300 next year.

arnis
Posts: 743
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:21 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:09 pm

No it won't. I'm not even sure they solidly promised that.
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

wmcbrine
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 3:23 am

Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:34 pm

powersurge wrote:Somehow, I cannot imagine that a 350kw charger will be in our lives for a VERY long time. Isn't this pie-in-the-sky fantasy?

Darn, we are still at 6.6kw charging...

Those are two different issues -- the DCFC rate, and the internal charger's rate (from AC). The DCFC rate is more like, what, up to 50 kW?

GRA
Posts: 7442
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:30 pm

Chargepoint goes a step further, via IEVS:
ChargePoint Express Plus Debuts: Offers Industry High 400 kW DC Fast Charging
http://insideevs.com/chargepoint-expres ... -charging/

    Platform adds hundreds of miles of range in under 15 minutes, charging today’s and tomorrow’s electric vehicles (EVs) at their peak rates.

    Offers the highest charging capacity in the industry, delivering up to 400 kW per port.

    The modular, highly scalable platform is designed to meet the charging requirements of current and next-generation electric cars, buses and trucks.

    Proprietary liquid cooling technology supports the thinnest, most flexible high-capacity charging cables on the market and creates a superior charging experience for drivers

As noted in the article, availability of these chargers will eliminate the chicken and the egg problem. There's a spec sheet: http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads ... -specs.jpg
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

arnis
Posts: 743
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:21 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:07 am

400A per plug maximum current. Only a notch more than Tesla's SuperChargers today.
Raising voltage and telling that "our ultra station is the best" is lame.
It's something like adding more megapixels to phone cameras - they still do bad job in low light.
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

lorenfb
Posts: 1389
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:29 pm

arnis wrote:Today I did a 10min DC charge with healthy 24kWh Leaf battery at exactly 1.4C - constantly - 32kW speed.
I got a result: 97% efficiency. This was in the low SOC part. And only 1/4 of all capacity was charged.
Unfortunatly I can not be sure that number on DC station and LeafSpy are very accurate.

For now (without additional information) I suppose 3% inefficiency is possible at "not that fast rate" and "low SOC".
I suppose Tesla has no worse than 95% efficiency at 120kW rate.
Therefore appr. max 120x0,05=6kW of heat generation in the pack.
This looks plausible. At the same time big question mark - why Tesla can not handle keeping the pack at constant temperature
at very warm weather scenario.


If you're able to vary the charge rate for your Leaf, it would be interesting to plot the thermal time constants
(TTC) for the Leaf battery as a function of charge rate. These data should result in a family of TTC curves,
i.e. with the Y axis being battery temp, the X axis being time & each line being a different charge rate.

Also of interest would be TTC for a step function of temp, i.e. the Leaf moved from a cold setting - a garage
(60 F) to an ambient of 100 F degrees. This would be an indication of how well the Leaf's battery is heat-sunk
to the chassis for heat dissipation or accumulation.

arnis
Posts: 743
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:21 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:41 am

This week I realized that there is no constant for battery temperature cooldown.

And this came from next observations:
during above freezing ambient weather it is very hard to get more than 10C above
ambient for average battery temperature with only 3.3kW charge rate (no L3 charging).
On the other hand it is very hard to not get more than 10C above ambient if it is
very cold outside. This week we had -20C (aka -4F) and battery was +2C (above freezing)
after only one longer trip. It doesn't cool down as fast as in mild weather.
I though about that for half an hour and came to conclusion than humidity
plays a big role on cooling. And now it makes a lot of sense why battery pack hardly
cools below -5C even after cold soaking for 10-15 hours at -15C -20C.

As a sauna lover I know that it is not the temperature people feel, it is the humidity (aka ability
to get/lose energy). Same works with enclosed battery pack. If we submerge battery into
water it will have much better heat transfer. Air pouch in the pack would then be the limiting factor.

I can easily sit in 120C (250F) environment for 10 minutes if humidity is low.
Adding half a liter of water (½ gallon) into small room at that temperature will instantly burn my ears :D
I can not withstand two minutes in 60C (140F) if Rh is above 100% (misting vapor).

Therefore there is no constant for L3 charging. Heat generation can be calculated using efficiency figure.
That efficiency also changes but most likely very little (25kW rate vs 50kW rate).
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

lorenfb
Posts: 1389
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:49 am

arnis wrote:This week I realized that there is no constant for battery temperature cooldown.

And this came from next observations:
during above freezing ambient weather it is very hard to get more than 10C above
ambient for average battery temperature with only 3.3kW charge rate (no L3 charging).
On the other hand it is very hard to not get more than 10C above ambient if it is
very cold outside. This week we had -20C (aka -4F) and battery was +2C (above freezing)
after only one longer trip. It doesn't cool down as fast as in mild weather.
I though about that for half an hour and came to conclusion than humidity
plays a big role on cooling. And now it makes a lot of sense why battery pack hardly
cools below -5C even after cold soaking for 10-15 hours at -15C -20C.

As a sauna lover I know that it is not the temperature people feel, it is the humidity (aka ability
to get/lose energy). Same works with enclosed battery pack. If we submerge battery into
water it will have much better heat transfer. Air pouch in the pack would then be the limiting factor.

I can easily sit in 120C (250F) environment for 10 minutes if humidity is low.
Adding half a liter of water (½ gallon) into small room at that temperature will instantly burn my ears :D
I can not withstand two minutes in 60C (140F) if Rh is above 100% (misting vapor).

Therefore there is no constant for L3 charging. Heat generation can be calculated using efficiency figure.
That efficiency also changes but most likely very little (25kW rate vs 50kW rate).


So you're stating that a battery charge rate (amps) has no effect on the battery's temperature change, i.e. a .1C versus
a 1C rate results in the same temperature change over the same time, right?

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