edatoakrun
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Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:36 am

RegGuheert wrote:...Charging at-or-near 350A will take quite a bit of time to become commonplace. There will be problems with overheating and fires early on. Simply put, it is a challenge to make the resistance low enough in connectors and crimps in consumer products at such high current levels. It also takes a lot of copper.

More to the point, the real costs of ~350A charging will likely prevent it's widespread adoption for passenger vehicles (other than possibly for the luxury vehicle market) for many years to come.

Sorry to burst any bubbles, but the infrastructure for ~350 kW charging for large numbers of BEVs is almost as much a pipe dream as is hydrogen infrastructure for large numbers of FCVs.

Utilities institute demand charges and time-of-use-rates because of the high costs high intermittent electricity demands place on the grid.

It already generally costs much more to deliver kWh at ~50 kW per-mile-driven than gasoline per-mile-driven for an efficient ICEV.

So most BEV drivers will probably opt for DC charge rates of much lower than ~350 kW, if the ACTUAL cost savings of taking more time to recharge are passed on to them when they pay at the charge site.

The fact is, on-board battery storage is generally a poor choice for vehicles for inefficient (high-speed) long distance travel, and will remain so for many years to come, due to both the high cost of the large battery packs, and the high costs for rapid refueling.

Can you imagine the astronomical cost to build the extra generation or storage capacity that would be required to charge hundreds of of thousands of BEVs at ~350 kW (or even at ~50 kW, for that matter) during peak demand on a hot Friday evening in Southern California, as the masses try to exit the urban centers for their weekend getaways?

Can you imagine how much cheaper, more efficient, and more convenient to drivers it would be instead, to equip the same hundreds of of thousands of BEVs with much smaller battery packs sufficient for normal daily driving requirements, and adding a hydrocarbon-fueled 10 kW to 50 kW on-board range extender, allowing these same drivers in their BEVx's to drive long-distances occasionally with less frequent, faster, and MUCH cheaper refueling stops?
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DNAinaGoodWay
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Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:26 am

Now with a Tesla plug:

Chargepoint mysteriously shows a Tesla handle in their own charger in new promo video - Electrek
https://apple.news/AMXto1t3GQeKMXjlurYxczg

IMG_6255.JPG
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'12 SL last reading @ 2 yr, 22k, 260 GIDs, 62.35 Ahr

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@ 25 months, 25k, 267 GID, 56.88 Ahr
@ 29 months, 29k, 286 GID, 60.88 Ahr
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6.72 kW Array

lorenfb
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Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:48 pm

edatoakrun wrote:[Can you imagine how much cheaper, more efficient, and more convenient to drivers it would be instead, to equip the same hundreds of of thousands of BEVs with much smaller battery packs sufficient for normal daily driving requirements, and adding a hydrocarbon-fueled 10 kW to 50 kW on-board range extender, allowing these same drivers in their BEVx's to drive long-distances occasionally with less frequent, faster, and MUCH cheaper refueling stops?


So the implication is that personal transportation needs will continue to be provided by hybrids until a more overall
viable energy storage device than battery technology occurs. It appears that the typical ICEV consumer views the
marketplace as you do, given the overall acceptance of BEVs at this point in time. And using Tesla, an outlier
even with the Model E reservations, to refute this in 2017 thru 2020 is naive.

sendler2112
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Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:55 pm

edatoakrun wrote:Can you imagine how much cheaper, more efficient, and more convenient to drivers it would be instead, to equip the same hundreds of of thousands of BEVs with much smaller battery packs sufficient for normal daily driving requirements, and adding a hydrocarbon-fueled 10 kW to 50 kW on-board range extender, allowing these same drivers in their BEVx's to drive long-distances occasionally with less frequent, faster, and MUCH cheaper refueling stops?

Good point. All plug in EV's should be designed with a rear quick charge port to connect to the 20kW gas gen set trailer for longer trips.
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viewtopic.php?f=8&t=23064&start=10
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Until we can develop the electrical infrustructure to the point of maintaining personal tranportation in a fossil fuel free world even with the new astronomical peak demands. We have 100 years of fairly easy crude oil left. Then what? Better focus and get busy with all dense forms of electrical generation.
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lorenfb
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Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:15 pm

arnis wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
So you're stating that a battery charge rate (amps) has no effect on the battery's temperature change, i.e. a .1C versus
a 1C rate results in the same temperature change over the same time, right?


What I said that there is no constant due to air humidity factor that is almost never mentioned.
Charging battery at .1C to full and 1C to full will have slightly different efficiency. Slightly different heat output if we sum the whole charge cycle.
Due to tenfold time difference peaking temperature will be different and efficiency difference will not be even noticed.


As will a graphical presentation of various charging rate data with regard to battery temperature that you have
now implied, which relates to the thermal time constant of the battery.

edatoakrun
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Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:54 pm

lorenfb wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:[Can you imagine how much cheaper, more efficient, and more convenient to drivers it would be instead, to equip the same hundreds of of thousands of BEVs with much smaller battery packs sufficient for normal daily driving requirements, and adding a hydrocarbon-fueled 10 kW to 50 kW on-board range extender, allowing these same drivers in their BEVx's to drive long-distances occasionally with less frequent, faster, and MUCH cheaper refueling stops?


So the implication is that personal transportation needs will continue to be provided by hybrids until a more overall
viable energy storage device than battery technology occurs...

No, until the infrastructure to recharge from the grid while driving on major highways is developed.

At that point, you will be little need an on-board generator (while you drive) and your battery pack need only have the capacity to cover the distance to your next destination charger or to the next electrified roadway.

sendler2112 wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:Can you imagine how much cheaper, more efficient, and more convenient to drivers it would be instead, to equip the same hundreds of of thousands of BEVs with much smaller battery packs sufficient for normal daily driving requirements, and adding a hydrocarbon-fueled 10 kW to 50 kW on-board range extender, allowing these same drivers in their BEVx's to drive long-distances occasionally with less frequent, faster, and MUCH cheaper refueling stops?

Good point. All plug in EV's should be designed with a rear quick charge port to connect to the 20kW gas gen set trailer for longer trips.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=23064&start=10
...


You both may want to read (and comment on-topic at) this thread.

The major difference in the economic realities since 2011 is that the huge drop in petroleum fuel prices makes the large kWh battery/high kW DC (Tesla) charging model even less viable than it was ~6 years ago, and the potential benefits from the on-board BEVx generators for V to G or V to home applications are much greater today than when hydrocarbon fuel prices were ~twice what they are now.

The “range–extended” EV (BEVx) considered

Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:50 am

The ideas below have been posted on many threads, by many members. But now that many now have had more BEV experience and winter is here (I may get to try out my LEAF in the snow for the first time here in North California, tomorrow) I thought maybe there would be interest in a dedicated thread.

I’m still not so ready to totally write off the ICE, as many on this site seem to be.

In fact, a true ICE ”range extender” for a BEV is not a bad Idea, It's just that current designs are all abysmal failures, from the point of energy efficiency and driver utility. Putting an ICE drivetrain in an EV, whether in series, parallel, or any other hybrid configuration, is not advisable, IMO. Invariably, you will get an overweight, overpriced, underperforming vehicle, like the Volt. It seems almost as ridiculous, to install an extremely expensive and heavy large battery pack (like the Tesla S long-range options) which is only occasionally required by the BEV driver.

A functional range extender would consist of:

A small displacement (200-600 CC) ICE generator, run at highest-efficiency rpm, to recharge the battery pack. Generator output would not be sufficient to drive the vehicle, just enough to extend the battery pack range to the next convenient recharge location.

It would not run on gasoline, but a less polluting, and more stable fuel, such as propane (easier refueling) or CNG (lower cost). 5 gallons of Propane, for example, would probably offer about 200 miles of range extention for a LEAF-sized BEV.

The fuel would also be available to a combustion cabin heater, the one use for which battery energy storage is particularly inefficient.

I think this could be integrated into the design of BEVs (and maybe even as a portable unit, and available for rent, as many have fantasized) at lower cost, and lower weight, than the huge battery packs some BEV manufactures seem to think are advisable...

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6847
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GRA
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Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:02 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:
GRA wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:<snip>
It’s quite probable that should the CCS group ever publicly release their data, we will find that the maximum amperage is 400 and the maximum voltage will be 850 to 900:

Per the Chargepoint spec sheet (back one page), the max. for their new unit is 400A @ 200 - 1,000V. If a Mission E has an 800V battery, it will have max. charge rate of 320kW. It would take a further boost in pack voltage by some manufacturer to get the full 400kW. Chargepoint is future-proofing to some extent by allowing a max. voltage of 1,000, even though no car known to be in development at this time can use that.


I think you are confusing the charger performance specs with the protocol specs. Yes, the ChargePoint charger has limits of 400a and 200-1000v. They are mistakenly calling that "400kW", even though no car would ever charge at that speed.

Currently, the CHAdeMO spec maximum is 350a / 50-1000v.

CCS has not publicly released their specification, but it's becoming more clear that is is likely also 350a, but also a duty cycle limited 400a. A company called Phoenix Contact has produced a liquid cooled pin set in the plug to handle the limited 400a.

As far as the maximum voltage for CCS, we just don't know... 850, 900, 1000??? We don't know. The minimum voltage is probably 200 or 250.

While no car currently known to be under design has a 1kV pack, that's not to say that no car ever will, or that "no car would ever charge at that speed." We agree that none will do so currently, and as you point out we don't know if or how the charge current may be time/heat-limited. I suspect charge tapering for the battery's health will likely occur before that, but we'll just have to wait and see.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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sendler2112
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Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:52 pm

edatoakrun wrote:The major difference in the economic realities since 2011 is that the huge drop in petroleum fuel prices makes the large kWh battery/high kW DC (Tesla) charging model even less viable than it was ~6 years ago

Unfortunately the free market system is currently revealing it's flaws now that we see the limits to growth on an overpopulated planet with limited resources. Sucking the Earth dry in the name of ever increasing short term profits has no immediate impetus for change toward a sustainable future. Competitive unrestained drilling means cheap gas so Joe Football can keep buying a new V8 powered pickup truck to drive back and forth to work. Humans will need an all electrical energy system with no fossil fuel consumption before it runs out. It will take centuries to achieve this. We need to use our current energy wealth to build this new system before it is too late.
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The large battery (60kWh), fast charge (120kW) streamlined personal transportation vehicle IS the way of the future. The grid just has a long way to go to catch up to match this to 11 Billion people. And all industry. And all home heating. And all farming. And all heavy transportation.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:06 pm

I suspect that Porsche will maintain the car at 400 volts and only use an 800 volt configuration for DC fast charging.

With the revelation that their "350kW" car will really be 220kW at 800 volt maximum, we have to assume that the max charge rate is around 700 volts. NO BATTERY ACCEPTS MAXIMUM AMPS AT ITS MAXIMUM VOLTS !!!

220kW = 350a * 629v (350 amps is very likely to be the max amps)
220kW = 312A * 700v
220kW = 293a * 750v

edatoakrun
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Re: First DC Station capable of charging at a rate of up to 350 kW, operational by 6/17?

Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:24 pm

sendler2112 wrote:...The large battery (60kWh), fast charge (120kW) streamlined personal transportation vehicle IS the way of the future...

IMO, no it is not.

I think that within a decade or two, the concept of storing the energy required to travel long distances in heavy and expensive batteries, installed in privately owned vehicles, instead of simply delivering the same kWh to vehicles (autonomous, and either multi-passenger or freight carrying) while they drive, may seem (in hindsight) somewhat comical.

See the on-topic thread:

Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

edatoakrun wrote:2018 is not that far away...

All non-electric fuels will probably eventually be replaced by electricity (if not for other reasons) because electricity is the only fuel that will be delivered while-you-drive.

And while we may see the first large-scale kWh deliveries in freeway right lanes with trucks, I expect that we soon after will also see it in the high-speed (autonomous) left lane.

Batteries of modest capacities will still be in the vehicles of course, for regenerative braking, local driving, and for the final miles to your destination after you leave the chargeway.

Electric Trucking Charges Up

..Heavy-duty electric trucks remain a rare sight on highways, in part because they need to make frequent stops to recharge and must carry heavy, expensive batteries. The pilot’s developers say their goal is to extend the distances electric trucks can drive and reduce the bulkiness of in-vehicle batteries...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-tr ... 1481212800

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