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IssacZachary
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How to get more charging stations.

Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:25 pm

  • So, I own a limited range car.
    • Well, just drive from charging station to charging station.
  • But, but, but, there aren't any charging stations
    • How about PlugShare?
    • Did you try getting a portable level 2 EVSE of some sort, perhaps with an adjustable amp setting?
    • What about a generator trailer?
    • Would making a pusher trailer be pushing it?
    • Ah! Just rent, why don't you?
  • Can't we just have more charging stations please?

I was wondering what suggestions anyone has in attempting to solicit or apply for charging stations in several locations. In my area, Delta, Cimarron, Saguache and Cañon City all need Level 2 charging stations.

But how can I make that possible without actually buying property just to install a personally owned charging station? Would buying several GE 40amp EVSE's and trying to hand them out to stores or restaurants do the trick? Or what?
2013 SL 50,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
The Nissan Leaf is the fourth best long distance car for highway driving. >>Best Long Distance Cars<<

cwerdna
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Re: How to get more charging stations.

Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:24 pm

IssacZachary wrote:I was wondering what suggestions anyone has in attempting to solicit or apply for charging stations in several locations. In my area, Delta, Cimarron, Saguache and Cañon City all need Level 2 charging stations.

But how can I make that possible without actually buying property just to install a personally owned charging station? Would buying several GE 40amp EVSE's and trying to hand them out to stores or restaurants do the trick? Or what?

You could try filling out https://www.chargepoint.com/drivers/request/ but they'll probably just make a sales pitch to the property owner who may say no.

Maybe try contacting https://www.evgo.com/ev-charging-business/retail/? See if other charging networks have similar forms? (I wouldn't hold your breath for Blink/Car Charging Group (CCGI) though. Their financials are scary.)

Installation costs are high. I started http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/vie ... f=7&t=3753 long ago. The RMI link is dead but you can see it at https://web.archive.org/web/20140515081 ... tion_costs. You contributing the hardware still means a huge remaining cost.

I've spoken to a well-known (to many Leafers in the Bay Area) Chargepoint employee about retail's (e.g. Costco and other's) opposition to EV charging stations and spots. IIRC, the problem is, now you've dedicated some portion of your parking lot (land isn't free) to spots that only can be used by a subset of vehicles and not all of them. Why would they want to do that? They'd rather have a parking space usable by everyone.

From my POV, many businesses around me already are getting a TON of business as it is WITHOUT any EV charging. My local Costco is a ZOO on weekends and busy enough about an hour before closing on weekdays. The local mall near me is quite busy on weekends. Another major and nice mall about 20 min drive from me a zoo on weekends and on weekends is a parking NIGHTMARE after Black Friday thru Christmas. I AVOID that mall on weekends during that nightmare period. I've been burned before.

You may be better off/just as well off buying/leasing a longer range EV (reducing the need for public infrastructure) or one where the charging infrastructure is more well developed. Or, get use a PHEV or other ICEV. My 06 Prius bought new in Jan 06 is my "range extender". It mostly sits and IIRC hasn't moved even 10K miles in the 4 years I've made a Leaf my primary car.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

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IssacZachary
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Re: How to get more charging stations.

Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:40 pm

cwerdna wrote:I've spoken to a well-known (to many Leafers in the Bay Area) Chargepoint employee about retail's (e.g. Costco and other's) opposition to EV charging stations and spots. IIRC, the problem is, now you've dedicated some portion of your parking lot (land isn't free) to spots that only can be used by a subset of vehicles and not all of them. Why would they want to do that? They'd rather have a parking space usable by everyone.

From my POV, many businesses around me already are getting a TON of business as it is WITHOUT any EV charging. My local Costco is a ZOO on weekends and busy enough about an hour before closing on weekdays. The local mall near me is quite busy on weekends. Another major and nice mall about 20 min drive from me a zoo on weekends and on weekends is a parking NIGHTMARE after Black Friday thru Christmas. I AVOID that mall on weekends during that nightmare period. I've been burned before.


True. But on the other hand I personally know I wouldn't have ever gone to Beau Jo's Pizza in Idaho Springs had it not been for their EV charging station. The same with the REI in Colorado Springs. I never stop at the convenience stores in Cimarron, Saguache or Sargents as of now. But if they put charging stations in I'd both stop there and buy there. And these aren't the kind of businesses that are full of customers. These are businesses that look like they are the last thing standing in a ghost town.

When I get to Denver and Costco doesn't have a charging station I personally don't care because Wal-Mart does. If Costco had one I'd actually contemplate about maybe shopping there. Now if all EV owners thought like I did then stores would have to realize that as more people convert to EV's the more customers they'll end up losing to the stores that actually have EV charging stations.

When I'm in a need for a charge and a bite in town I pick a restaurant close to the town's only charging station. Now down on the other end of town there are restaurants that I like, but they're too far away.

cwerdna wrote:You may be better off/just as well off buying/leasing a longer range EV (reducing the need for public infrastructure) or one where the charging infrastructure is more well developed. Or, get use a PHEV or other ICEV. My 06 Prius bought new in Jan 06 is my "range extender". It mostly sits and IIRC hasn't moved even 10K miles in the 4 years I've made a Leaf my primary car.

Those are, or can be, some expensive range extending options. But of course, $6,000 multiplied by four or five charitable charging stations wouldn't be cheap either.
2013 SL 50,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
The Nissan Leaf is the fourth best long distance car for highway driving. >>Best Long Distance Cars<<

cwerdna
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Re: How to get more charging stations.

Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:11 pm

IssacZachary wrote:True. But on the other hand I personally know I wouldn't have ever gone to Beau Jo's Pizza in Idaho Springs had it not been for their EV charging station. The same with the REI in Colorado Springs. I never stop at the convenience stores in Cimarron, Saguache or Sargents as of now. But if they put charging stations in I'd both stop there and buy there. And these aren't the kind of businesses that are full of customers. These are businesses that look like they are the last thing standing in a ghost town.

When I get to Denver and Costco doesn't have a charging station I personally don't care because Wal-Mart does. If Costco had one I'd actually contemplate about maybe shopping there. Now if all EV owners thought like I did then stores would have to realize that as more people convert to EV's the more customers they'll end up losing to the stores that actually have EV charging stations.

When I'm in a need for a charge and a bite in town I pick a restaurant close to the town's only charging station. Now down on the other end of town there are restaurants that I like, but they're too far away.

You do realize the EV and PHEV take rate in the US is minuscule, right? Per http://www.hybridcars.com/july-2017-dashboard/ for July 2017:
Plug-in Hybrid Take-Rate: 0.53%
Battery Electric Take-Rate: 0.55%

If you want to compare absolute numbers of those vs. the entire US auto market, http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2017/08/ju ... kings.html has numbers.

There were an estimated 7,802 BEVs sold/leased in total in the US that month. In comparison, here are some example # of units sold/leased that month of ICEVs: #1 Ford F-Series truck: 69.4K, #3 Rav4: 41.8K, #5 Civic: 36.7K (top selling passenger car) and so on.

And, then there's the existing installed based of vehicles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger ... f_vehicles claims there are 254 million registered vehicles in the US. I don't believe (hopefully someone else has the numbers) that total cumulative BEV sales/leases in the US have even hit 500K units.

Think about the cost/benefit analysis that a business/land owner might have. What's the incremental gain (if any) in business he might get from installing an L2 EVSE or DC FC? And, what's the trade-off? (see earlier post) What happens if the station needs repair (stops working, copper thieves cut the cable, handle breaks, etc.)?

(Non-plugin hybrids) which have been selling in the US (albeit in limited quantities until say after 2006 or so) which require no habit change on the part of drivers, have no range anxiety issues and require no new infrastructure at home or in public never seemed to get above the 3.x% take rate or so in the US.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

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IssacZachary
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Re: How to get more charging stations.

Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:12 pm

cwerdna wrote:
IssacZachary wrote:True. But on the other hand I personally know I wouldn't have ever gone to Beau Jo's Pizza in Idaho Springs had it not been for their EV charging station. The same with the REI in Colorado Springs. I never stop at the convenience stores in Cimarron, Saguache or Sargents as of now. But if they put charging stations in I'd both stop there and buy there. And these aren't the kind of businesses that are full of customers. These are businesses that look like they are the last thing standing in a ghost town.

When I get to Denver and Costco doesn't have a charging station I personally don't care because Wal-Mart does. If Costco had one I'd actually contemplate about maybe shopping there. Now if all EV owners thought like I did then stores would have to realize that as more people convert to EV's the more customers they'll end up losing to the stores that actually have EV charging stations.

When I'm in a need for a charge and a bite in town I pick a restaurant close to the town's only charging station. Now down on the other end of town there are restaurants that I like, but they're too far away.

You do realize the EV and PHEV take rate in the US is minuscule, right? Per http://www.hybridcars.com/july-2017-dashboard/ for July 2017:
Plug-in Hybrid Take-Rate: 0.53%
Battery Electric Take-Rate: 0.55%

If you want to compare absolute numbers of those vs. the entire US auto market, http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2017/08/ju ... kings.html has numbers.

There were an estimated 7,802 BEVs sold/leased in total in the US that month. In comparison, here are some example # of units sold/leased that month of ICEVs: #1 Ford F-Series truck: 69.4K, #3 Rav4: 41.8K, #5 Civic: 36.7K (top selling passenger car) and so on.

And, then there's the existing installed based of vehicles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger ... f_vehicles claims there are 254 million registered vehicles in the US. I don't believe (hopefully someone else has the numbers) that total cumulative BEV sales/leases in the US have even hit 500K units.

Think about the cost/benefit analysis that a business/land owner might have. What's the incremental gain (if any) in business he might get from installing an L2 EVSE or DC FC? And, what's the trade-off? (see earlier post) What happens if the station needs repair (stops working, copper thieves cut the cable, handle breaks, etc.)?

(Non-plugin hybrids) which have been selling in the US (albeit in limited quantities until say after 2006 or so) which require no habit change on the part of drivers, have no range anxiety issues and require no new infrastructure at home or in public never seemed to get above the 3.x% take rate or so in the US.

I know. You're right. I'm just a bit optimistic about the future I guess. Or pessimistic at the same time or something like that. But as of now, from their standpoint it might make as much sense to install water tanks for all the steam cars that are being produced. Well, almost, but you get the idea.

After all, there are only three Leaf owners in all of Gunnison that I know of. And believe me, that's probably all there is too. So 3 out of 6,000 vehicle owners are EV owners. Not a big selling point at this time.

I guess I was just hoping someone would know of some subsidy or grant for such stations. The Charge Point site seems to want much more info than I've got. Time to make that solar/battery trailer I guess... :mrgreen:
2013 SL 50,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
The Nissan Leaf is the fourth best long distance car for highway driving. >>Best Long Distance Cars<<

cwerdna
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Re: How to get more charging stations.

Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:55 am

^^^
Unfortunately, there appears to be no $ to be made in EV charging in the US.

We have many (most?) of the EVgo stations in CA due to a settlement referred to in viewtopic.php?t=15927. See https://www.evgo.com/wp-content/uploads ... -FINAL.pdf. I don't believe the EV charging portion of NRG EVgo ever publicly reported financials but numerous reports said they were bleeding cash before they were spun off.

IIRC, a whole bunch of taxpayer $ went towards Ecotality, who was behind crappy Blink. They went BK and CCGI bought the carcass. See https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/CCGI/financials?p=CCGI for scary financials. Not sure what was up with the somehow profitable quarter ending 12/31/16 but I'm fairly sure that was from some one-time event.

And for DC FCing, there can be other big challenges due to demand charges. See viewtopic.php?t=23794. TonyWilliams has posted about this a bunch in the past.

AFAIK, Chargepoint doesn't own any charging stations other than the ones at their HQ or and maybe their old HQ. They make $ selling the stations and on subscription fees.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
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speedski97
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Re: How to get more charging stations.

Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:35 am

In CA. with all of the EVs that are here, it is still a hard to see the up side to sponsor a charging station. The 4 j1772 chargers down the street from my house were removed. EV owners would drop their cars at night in the hospital parking lot for free fuel then get a ride home. The operators got mad at the traffic and loosing parking spots every night. The disrespect some EV owners have for the entitlement of a free charger is bad and getting worse. With the new long range cars being made with no dealer support and little education on charger use. My work has a free dc fast charger and a lot of J1772 for use during the day, I has watched fights, owners unwilling to move to a j1772 to charge above 90% and beyond the 30 min time limit, because " the charger is mine I waited for it". That was from a EV owner to me I was driving a Co leaf with the logo on the side that matches the one on the charger. I waited for the charger my time is billed at $150 an hour to the Co. The cords are all over the place, the ev owners should pick them up and the ones next to them. I had one gal park on top of the cord so no one could unplug his car. I explained that to replace the cord was about $1000 dollars.She answered " so! I need the charger and don't want it unplugged by someone ."
The cost of an install is about $10k for a L2 and $ 100k to $200k for a L3 DC fast charger and power... with a lot of costs moving forward. I own an EV and promote EVs It is hard to sell with actions like this. The up side for the vender is hard to see.
I have had luck with RV parks as they have the 240 power already pulled for use. They can rent a L2 charger for $5 bucks. Even giving the RV park the charger for free. it is still a hard sell. They rent a spot to a RV for $50 a night that is what they know. The EVs complain at $5 + $5 rental. To get a install done you need to get a group of EV owners together, find funding for the charging station and the owner. then sell it. most RV parks have a store . Use the increase traffic as a + . You can look for other places that have power already pulled as the is the costly part of a new station. good luck and good on you for making the trip and promoting EV use.

Darryl
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Re: How to get more charging stations.

Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:28 am

From an area that has few EV's and chargers, I have done a little promotion on chargers to several companies. Here 99% of chargers are free, including our only Chademo charger in the state of Louisiana and Mississippi combined. However there is not much demand for charging. Many companies that do have chargers are doing so for the "Green" company PR. However even many companies that would have chargers installed elsewhere do not have them here, such as Trader Joes.

One point that might sound counter intuitive is promoting Teslas Destination Charging. https://www.tesla.com/destination-charging. Where Tesla pays for installation of HPWC's for business where people would generally spend some time. Though it may not seem to help Leaf owners, there have been several articles about Tesla paying for the installation of higher power J1772 chargers as well. We have two locations in my area that I can think of: One is Urban South Brewery where Tesla has installed two HPWC's and two rebadged Clipper Creek Chargers. Another is a Bed and Breakfast that had one of each installed. I have suggested this option for our local malls. At least one of responded later that they are looking into adding EV charging.
2012 Nissan Leaf SL w 54900 miles SOH 60%. Lost four bars.

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IssacZachary
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Re: How to get more charging stations.

Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:39 pm

Thanks for the replies thus far!
2013 SL 50,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
The Nissan Leaf is the fourth best long distance car for highway driving. >>Best Long Distance Cars<<

remarquian
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Location: Denver, CO

Re: How to get more charging stations.

Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:12 pm

IssacZachary wrote:I guess I was just hoping someone would know of some subsidy or grant for such stations. The Charge Point site seems to want much more info than I've got. Time to make that solar/battery trailer I guess... :mrgreen:


There is. The state of Colorado has a grant program and will pay for like up to 80% of L2 and L3 stations installation costs for non-profits or multiunit landlords.

http://cleanairfleets.org/programs/char ... 20colorado
'16 SV Coulis Red ~ '17 SV Brilliant Siver.

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