DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13328
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Electrify America Network

Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:19 am

Now beginning to look like the difference between available crews to build the facilities. I talked with someone who met the people building the Vancouver site and apparently they are juggling 3 sites at once doing what they can between permit waits...
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GRA
Posts: 9498
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Electrify America Network

Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:57 pm

Having opened their first high-power QC on May 2nd, let's call the end of August the first four months of deployment. Here's the current status:

    Electrify America Charging stations

    1. Gulfport Premium Outlets(10000 Factory Shops Blvd, Gulfport, MS, 39503)
    2. Brughs Mill Country Store(345 Brughs Mill Rd, Fincastle, VA, 24090)
    3. Chicopee Marketplace(591 Memorial Dr, Chicopee, MA, 01020)
    4. Reston HQ(2003 Edmund Halley Drive, Reston, VA, 20191)
    5. Walmart Supercenter 1065(2400 N Hervey St, Hope, AR, 71801)
    6. Farrar Place(920 Hillsboro Blvd, Manchester, TN, 37355)
    7. Stratford Square(411 Barnum Ave Cutoff, Stratford, CT, 06615)
    8. Walmart Supercenter 91(205 Deaderick Rd, Forrest City, AR, 72335)
    9. T & T Country Store(40 Washington St W, Huntington, OR, 97907)
    10. Walmart Supercenter 1214(115 W Willow St, Colby, KS, 67701)
    11. Walmart Supercenter 402(1932 Rees St, Breaux Bridge, LA, 70517)
    12. Walmart Supercenter 3835(5588 Little Debbie Pkwy, Ooltewah, TN, 37363)

    Coming Soon [GRA: 52 total]

    Alltown Gas Station Plymouth(22 Long Pond Rd, Plymouth, MA, 02360)
    Walmart Supercenter 1834(135 NE Terry Ln, Grants Pass, OR, 97526)
    Walmart Supercenter 5396(1330 Goldfish Farm Rd SE, Albany, OR, 97322)
    Stinker Store #68(326 ID-24, Heyburn, ID, 83336)
    Walmart Supercenter 3259(3555 Mullan Rd, Missoula, MT, 59808)
    Kum & Go 540(3105 Grand Prairie Pkwy, Waukee, IA, 50263)
    Walmart Supercenter 1585(1401 S Dewey St, North Platte, NE, 69143)
    Grand Island Quality Inn(7838 S Hwy 281, Grand Island, NE, 68803)
    Casey's Lincoln NE(110 NW 20th St, Lincoln, NE, 68528)
    Walmart Supercenter 5033(1300 Barlow Rd, Ft. Morgan, CO, 80701)
    Walmart Supercenter 664(4301 Vine St, Hays, KS, 67601)
    Casey's Lebanon MO(669 West Elm St, Lebanon, MO, 65536)
    Walmart Supercenter 7249(500 W Mount Vernon Blvd, Mount Vernon, MO, 65712)
    Walmart Supercenter 331(525 N Cities Service Hwy, Sulphur, LA, 70663)
    The Commons at Wolfcreek(2755 North Germantown Pkwy, Memphis, TN, 38133)
    Willowbrook Commons(61 East Thompson Lane, Nashville, TN, 37211)
    Pensacola Square(6235 North Davis Hwy, Pensacola, FL, 32504)
    Walmart Supercenter 2114(1621 Main St, Chipley, FL, 32428)
    Barrett Place(800 Cobb Place Boulevard NW, Kennesaw, GA, 30144)
    Walmart Supercenter 3(30983 US Hwy 441, Commerce, GA, 30529)
    Walmart Supercenter 959(2163 W County Rd 48, Bushnell, FL, 33513)
    Waterford Commons( 915 Hartford Turnpike, Waterford, CT, 06385)
    Walmart Supercenter 1802(1501 SW Wanamaker Rd, Topeka, KS, 66604)
    Dell Mercantile(24 Main St, Dell, MT, 59724)
    Walmart Supercenter 602(1025 Sawdust Rd, Spring, TX, 77380)
    Novato Fair Shopping Center(900 Diablo Ave, Novato, CA, 94947)
    Motel 6 - Dunnigan(3930 County Rd 89, Dunnigan, CA, 95937)
    Walmart Supercenter 2947(9000 NE Hwy 99, Vancouver, WA, 98665)
    Rufus Sinclair Gas Station(501 1st St, Rufus, OR, 97050)
    Walmart Supercenter 3053(1605 SE Everett Mall Way, Everett, WA, 98208)
    Walmart Supercenter 1889(11619 Island Ave, Island City, OR, 97850)
    Flying J Town Pump(122000 W Browns Gultch Rd, Butte, MT, 59701)
    Walmart Sam's Club 8272(4385 Venetucci Blvd, Fountain, CO, 80906)
    Walmart Supercenter 1965(3201 Manawa Centre Dr, Council Bluffs, IA, 51501)
    Walmart Supercenter 637(200 Frontier St, Lexington, NE, 68850)
    Walmart Supercenter 65(350 Park Ridge Rd, Sullivan, MO, 63080)
    Walmart Supercenter 3602(1100 Lejune Dr, Springfield, IL, 62703)
    Walmart Supercenter 673(3050 Wilma Rudolph Blvd, Clarksville, TN, 37040)
    Village Commons Shopping Center(1300 Village Square, Tallahassee, FL, 32312)
    Walmart Supercenter 1048(589 KY-92, Williamsburg, KY, 40769)
    Walmart Supercenter 907(180 N Lee St, Forsyth, GA, 31029)
    The Walk at Highwoods Preserve(18001 Highwoods Preserve Pkwy, Tampa, FL, 33647)
    Walmart Supercenter 2860(160 Pooler Pkwy, Pooler, GA, 31322)
    Walmart Supercenter 1769(20 Industrial Dr, Dubois, PA, 15801)
    Sheetz 213(2511 New Berwick Hwy, Bloomsburg, PA, 17815)
    Walmart Supercenter 1949(10401 Bennett Rd, Fredonia, NY, 14063)
    Walmart Supercenter 630(230 N Beltline Dr, Florence, SC, 29501)
    Sheetz 191(1098 Harrisburg Pike, Carlisle, PA, 17013)
    Country Hills Shopping Center(2965 Rolling Hills Rd, Torrance, CA, 90505)
    Montebello Plaza(2401 W Via Campo, Montebello, CA, 90640)
    Walmart Supercenter 5195(11400 Hwy 99, Everett, WA, 98204)
    Walmart Supercenter 1697(8465 Elk Grove Blvd, Elk Grove, CA, 95758)
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Kieran973
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:51 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Jun 2018

Re: Electrify America Network

Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:22 pm

What are people's thoughts about when the 2019 e-Plus will actually be able to charge at 100+ kW quick chargers in the real world? At least in the northeast, this would mean that one of two things has to happen:

1. Electrify America has to upgrade its Chademo's to 100+ kW (and, realistically, add more Chademo plugs to each EA station, as there is currently only one Chademo at every single EA station).

2. EVGo has to upgrade its Chademo's to 100+ kW (EVGo is the dominant highway DCQC network in the Boston-Washington D.C. corridor)

Looking at both the EA and EVGo websites, these two contingencies certainly seem possible, as both EA and EVGo have supposedly future-proofed their Chademo plugs to be able to charge at 100+ kW, but there is not even a hint of a timeline as to when this might happen. 2020? 2025?

The reason I ask: unless one of these two things happens very soon, then it could be years before one of the major selling points of the 2019 Leaf (100 kW quick charging) becomes usable. It would be kind of like buying a bunch of DVD's years before the first DVD player becomes available. And if that's the case, then why spend top dollar on a new e-Plus when it comes out later this fall/winter? Why not instead wait 2-3 years and buy a heavily depreciated, low-mileage, used e-Plus when the infrastructure to actually use it to its full potential exists in the real world?

Kieran973
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:51 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Jun 2018

Re: Electrify America Network

Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:49 pm

Actually, the more I think about it, for 100 kW quick charging to be usable in the northeast in any of the upcoming 200+ mile EVs (Leaf, Kona, Niro), then EVGo has to upgrade both its CCS and Chademo plugs to 100+ kW. At least on the NYC-Boston corridor, all the strategically located quick charge stations are run by EVGo. The problem with the EA stations (Chicopee, MA and the two Connecticut ones) is that they're all too far out of the way for an NYC to Boston drive - the Chicopee, MA one is too far west of the 84/90 junction, and the Connecticut stations are on a portion of 95 that is not the most direct or quickest route for a Boston-NYC trip (the quickest way usually being route 90 to 84 to 91 to 15 and vice versa). So any time you'd save by using one of the EA 150 kW chargers would be counteracted by the time it took you to detour to there - it would actually be faster to just stick to the route and charge at a 50 kW EVGo station. Which means that, practically speaking, EVGo needs to upgrade their network ASAP for the Leaf/Kona/Niro to be able to charge at 100 kW on an NYC-Boston trip....

Evoforce
Posts: 832
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: Electrify America Network

Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:26 pm

When are they going to build any chargers servicing Arizonans? And being able to get to neighboring states?
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

SageBrush
Posts: 2910
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Electrify America Network

Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:27 pm

The entire business of "rated for X kW" and what is actually obtained between the car and the charger is a mess in the CCS world (let alone ChadeMO.) Watch a couple of Bjorn Nyland's videos on youTube of charging different cars in Europe. I don't think he has seen over 70-80 kW even using "150 kW" chargers on cars ranging from the Hyundai Kona to the Jag i-Pace and others in-between. 50 kW seems typical.

As for ChadeMO in the US ? Figure 45 kW peak now and in the future.
The CHadeMO association published that 2000 stations were in N. America as of Dec 2016 but has turned silent since then, counting instead Europe and worldwide. I failed to find a report from any source of current N. American number of installations, although one Google search said 2200 as of July 2017.

I'm pretty sure CHadeMO is a lame duck in N. America, so I don't expect any significant capital investment to upgrade or enhance current infrastructure or to accommodate the ~ 15k -- 20k per year future, higher charging spec CHadeMO cars coming to N. American roads.

Addendum:
I finally found a CHAdeMO counter at
https://www.afdc.energy.gov/stations/#/ ... rs=CHADEMO
They report 3029 outlets and 2202 locations.
This is a very nice website. I'm not sure of how uptodate it is but I imagine pretty good. It is also easy to filter by state.
Last edited by SageBrush on Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:11 am, edited 4 times in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1943
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Electrify America Network

Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:55 am

Kieran973 wrote:What are people's thoughts about when the 2019 e-Plus will actually be able to charge at 100+ kW quick chargers in the real world? At least in the northeast, this would mean that one of two things has to happen:

1. Electrify America has to upgrade its Chademo's to 100+ kW (and, realistically, add more Chademo plugs to each EA station, as there is currently only one Chademo at every single EA station).

2. EVGo has to upgrade its Chademo's to 100+ kW (EVGo is the dominant highway DCQC network in the Boston-Washington D.C. corridor)

Looking at both the EA and EVGo websites, these two contingencies certainly seem possible, as both EA and EVGo have supposedly future-proofed their Chademo plugs to be able to charge at 100+ kW, but there is not even a hint of a timeline as to when this might happen. 2020? 2025?

The reason I ask: unless one of these two things happens very soon, then it could be years before one of the major selling points of the 2019 Leaf (100 kW quick charging) becomes usable. It would be kind of like buying a bunch of DVD's years before the first DVD player becomes available. And if that's the case, then why spend top dollar on a new e-Plus when it comes out later this fall/winter? Why not instead wait 2-3 years and buy a heavily depreciated, low-mileage, used e-Plus when the infrastructure to actually use it to its full potential exists in the real world?


This is not a fair comparison. Those DVD's would be doorstops. Your e-Plus would still be quite usable. It's more like watching HD-DVD on a standard definition TV.

Also, you still get to enjoy the full 225+ mile range of the e-Plus. In my experience, that's far more important than the charging rate (although the two together are what make a true road-trip-worthy EV).
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

GRA
Posts: 9498
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Electrify America Network

Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:04 pm

Kieran973 wrote:Actually, the more I think about it, for 100 kW quick charging to be usable in the northeast in any of the upcoming 200+ mile EVs (Leaf, Kona, Niro), then EVGo has to upgrade both its CCS and Chademo plugs to 100+ kW. At least on the NYC-Boston corridor, all the strategically located quick charge stations are run by EVGo. The problem with the EA stations (Chicopee, MA and the two Connecticut ones) is that they're all too far out of the way for an NYC to Boston drive - the Chicopee, MA one is too far west of the 84/90 junction, and the Connecticut stations are on a portion of 95 that is not the most direct or quickest route for a Boston-NYC trip (the quickest way usually being route 90 to 84 to 91 to 15 and vice versa). So any time you'd save by using one of the EA 150 kW chargers would be counteracted by the time it took you to detour to there - it would actually be faster to just stick to the route and charge at a 50 kW EVGo station. Which means that, practically speaking, EVGo needs to upgrade their network ASAP for the Leaf/Kona/Niro to be able to charge at 100 kW on an NYC-Boston trip....

The route you describe is 216 miles per Google maps, so any stop for a 200+ mile car, even with fairly generous reserves, would seem to be pretty short even at 50kW. More than a gasser or Tesla to be sure, but still pretty small unless you make that trip often. A new Kona might be able to do it non-stop in good conditions if you were to cut your margins a bit close, so why even worry about a 60kWh LEAF when you'll have three affordable 60+ kWh CCS two-box hatchback cars to choose from? You've got options.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Kieran973
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:51 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Jun 2018

Re: Electrify America Network

Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:05 pm

I'm pretty sure CHadeMO is a lame duck in N. America, so I don't expect any significant capital investment to upgrade or enhance current infrastructure or to accommodate the ~ 15k -- 20k per year future, higher charging spec CHadeMO cars coming to N. American roads.


You're probably right. I was just hoping that EVGo really has 'future-proofed' their quick charge stations for 100 kW and that these can be upgraded through relatively quick software updates. EVGo claims to be ready for 100 kW charging, but the details of how, concretely, they plan to convert each station are somewhat vague:

https://insideevs.com/nrg-evgo-to-ready ... -chargers/


This is not a fair comparison. Those DVD's would be doorstops. Your e-Plus would still be quite usable. It's more like watching HD-DVD on a standard definition TV.

Also, you still get to enjoy the full 225+ mile range of the e-Plus. In my experience, that's far more important than the charging rate (although the two together are what make a true road-trip-worthy EV).


Of course. When I made the DVD analogy, I was speaking only of the 100 kW quick charging, not the overall car itself. I think 225+ miles of range and TMS would be fantastic.


The route you describe is 216 miles per Google maps, so any stop for a 200+ mile car, even with fairly generous reserves, would seem to be pretty short even at 50kW. More than a gasser or Tesla to be sure, but still pretty small unless you make that trip often. A new Kona might be able to do it non-stop in good conditions if you were to cut your margins a bit close, so why even worry about a 60kWh LEAF when you'll have three affordable 60+ kWh CCS two-box hatchback cars to choose from? You've got options.


In my case, the "NYC-Boston" trip that I take 6-10 times a year actually takes me a little north of Boston and is about 240 miles. The reason I'm trying to speculate a little about the future timeline of real-world 100 kW charging is that this is part of a larger and perhaps unproductive speculation about the relative value of buying a 2018 Leaf now or waiting for any of the 2019 EVs (Leaf e-Plus, Kona, Niro).

Practically speaking, what I would gain by waiting for the 2019 Leaf would be 1.) these 240 mile trips would take one 20ish minute quick charge stop in the 2019 vs. two 20ish minute quick charge stops in the 2018 (not a huge deal), and 2.) the 2019 will be a 200+ mile, long-distance-capable car for its entire life, while the 2018 will most likely be long-distance-capable for two years or so and then rapidly devolve into a purely city/commuter car (a much bigger deal).

But the big questions are price and availability. It looks like because of a combination of various local and national discounts, I can pick up a 2018 Leaf SV with the all-weather package for under $20K. But a big part of this discount - a $5,000 discount through my local utility - expires September 30. The problem is that there's no pricing yet for any of the 2019 models, nor release dates despite their alleged imminence, plus the availability of the Kona and Niro on the east coast has a permanent question mark over it - you still can't buy an Ioniq EV out here, and that car came out almost 2 years ago. Now, if, for example, after a combination of dealer discounts and tax credits/rebates you could buy one of the 60 kWh 2019's (e-Plus, Kona, or Niro) for say $23K total out of pocket costs (what you can basically buy a base model Honda Clarity PHEV for right now), and if the wait time to get one of these at $23K was under a year, then sure, I would wait for the 2019's. I would even wait if you could buy one of these for under $25K. But if, instead, the new 2019's will have total out of pocket costs of $30+K for the next 2 years, then I would just go with the 2018 Leaf now. It's just impossible to know until specific pricing and availability details are released, but the clock is ticking on that utility discount....

SageBrush
Posts: 2910
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Electrify America Network

Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:01 am

This is 2017 all over again.
Nissan is clearing out inventory in anticipation of the new model.
The discounts will continue until the inventory is depleted.

Expect the 2019 model to show up afterwards and to be list price for a while
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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