GRA
Posts: 9273
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

GCR: eVgo simplifies, cuts electric-car fast charging prices nationwide

Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:10 pm

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115535_evgo-simplifies-cuts-electric-car-fast-charging-prices-nationwide

This is a big deal, as eVgo's prices were much too high before, and their QC sessions too short for bigger battery cars. The new (long-term) prices get them into the same cents/mile ballpark as many ICEs, albeit still higher than most HEVs:
. . . On Thursday, the nation's largest fast-charging network announced a new, simplified, and lower pricing system to address the last of those three problems.

EVgo's new prices apply to its more than 1,000 sites nationwide, and cut rates both for one-time users and network members. . . .

IEVS article:
EVgo Slashes Fast-Charge Pricing
https://insideevs.com/evgo-slashes-fast-charge-pricing/

. . . There will be two options available: a new Pay As You Go rate and Membership. Both offer AC L2 charging for $1.50/hour, so the difference lies in DC fast charging.

The Pay As You Go doesn’t require anything in terms of session fees, monthly fees, etc. Depending on state, the prices are simply:

between $0.25 and $0.35 per minute
through June 2018, EVgo will offer a special promotional rate for chargers located in California of $0.20/minute
charging time has also been extended to 45 minutes

In case of Membership:

$9.99/month (acts as a pre-paid credit that is simply applied towards charging activity for that month)
between $0.18 and $0.21 per minute depending on charger location

through June 2018, EVgo will offer a special promotional rate for chargers located in California of $0.15/minute
charging time has also been extended to 45 minutes, and up to 60 minutes during off-peak hours (charges initiating between 8:00pm-5:59am).
. . .

The dropping of connection fees for PAYG is also very helpful. The main question is can they afford to do this and be profitable?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

cmwade77
Posts: 134
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:04 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Nov 2017

Re: GCR: eVgo simplifies, cuts electric-car fast charging prices nationwide

Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:13 pm

I have done the math and the cost on EvGo is about half of even a very efficient 45 MPG car, at least here in Southern California where gas nears $3.25 a gallon (sometimes higher, sometimes a little lower). Considering I can go about 90 miles off a charge on EvGo and it costs me about $4, I still would come out ahead.

As to if they can do this an be profitable, I am sure they can, in general most large business (which is where most EvGo chargers are located) pay around $0.05 to $0.10 per kwh. Figure even if the new session fully charges a 2013 leaf, it will cost them around $2.50, at most in electricity costs and they would be making at least $6.75 for the charging session. Yeah, they definitely can make a profit, even factoring renting the space, etc.

I was grandfathered into their old $0.10/minute plan and given the amount of charging I do on their network, switching to their new $9.99/month plan saves me about $100 a year, even though the per minute costs are higher. This is because instead of them just getting the monthly fee and me getting nothing for it, I get it as a credit.

As for the short sessions, it just meant you had to start a new session right after the first, unless you are on one of the discount programs like the No Charge to Charge, there was no restriction about how often you could charge.

SageBrush
Posts: 2805
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: GCR: eVgo simplifies, cuts electric-car fast charging prices nationwide

Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:46 pm

cmwade77 wrote:As to if they can do this an be profitable, I am sure they can, in general most large business (which is where most EvGo chargers are located) pay around $0.05 to $0.10 per kwh.

You are neglecting demand charges, so do not be so sure.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GRA
Posts: 9273
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: GCR: eVgo simplifies, cuts electric-car fast charging prices nationwide

Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:54 pm

SageBrush wrote:
cmwade77 wrote:As to if they can do this an be profitable, I am sure they can, in general most large business (which is where most EvGo chargers are located) pay around $0.05 to $0.10 per kwh.

You are neglecting demand charges, so do not be so sure.

Indeed, that's the killer. Until we get cheap storage, demand charges will likely make QC'ing unprofitable at these prices. See e.g.
RMI and EVgo Report Reveals Utility Rate Structures to Support Fast Charging Growth
https://www.rmi.org/about/news-and-press/press-release-rmi-evgo-report-reveals-utility-rate-structures-support-fast-charging-growth/
RMI’s study found that, under certain electricity tariffs, current demand charges can make up as much as 90 percent of the monthly bill of operational public DC fast chargers, driving the cost of delivered electricity as high as $1.96 per kilowatt-hour (kWh) during summer months in some locations. These charges are nearly seven times as high as the current gasoline equivalent cost of $0.29/kWh, meaning it is difficult for DC Fast charging providers like EVgo to remain competitive with the costs of operating petroleum-fueled vehicles.

That's from last April and gas prices are higher now.

Re restarting a charge, as there was a fee ($7.95? $9.95?) each time you did that, it made the electricity far too expensive once they jacked the rate to $0.20/minute. Now, at a flat per minute rate and longer limits it's a much better deal. At the current California come-on PAYG price of $0.20/minute and 50kW QC, that's ($0.20/min) / (5/6 kWh/min) = $0.24/kWh from the wall, or about $0.27 - $0.28/kWh to the battery assuming no taper, so comparable to HEVs. At $0.25/min it's more expensive than a high-mpg HEV, and if it goes up to $0.35/min it's break-even with many conventional ICEs. $1.50/hr. for L2 is a decent price, a few cents/kWh less than QC:

Through June 30th, 2018, EVgo is offering a promotional rate at DC fast chargers in California. Customers on the Membership plan will pay only $0.15/minute for DC Fast charging, and customers on Pay As You Go will pay $0.20/minute. After June 30th, California pricing will match our other markets: Between $0.18-0.21/minute for members and $0.25-0.35/minute for Pay As You Go drivers. The monthly membership fee, session length and Level 2 rates will not change after the promotional period.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

cmwade77
Posts: 134
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:04 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Nov 2017

Re: GCR: eVgo simplifies, cuts electric-car fast charging prices nationwide

Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:14 am

SageBrush wrote:
cmwade77 wrote:As to if they can do this an be profitable, I am sure they can, in general most large business (which is where most EvGo chargers are located) pay around $0.05 to $0.10 per kwh.

You are neglecting demand charges, so do not be so sure.

This is what businesses that offer free charging have been telling me, so I am just going off of what they say.

cmwade77
Posts: 134
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:04 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Nov 2017

Re: GCR: eVgo simplifies, cuts electric-car fast charging prices nationwide

Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:27 am

GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
cmwade77 wrote:As to if they can do this an be profitable, I am sure they can, in general most large business (which is where most EvGo chargers are located) pay around $0.05 to $0.10 per kwh.

You are neglecting demand charges, so do not be so sure.

Indeed, that's the killer. Until we get cheap storage, demand charges will likely make QC'ing unprofitable at these prices. See e.g.
RMI and EVgo Report Reveals Utility Rate Structures to Support Fast Charging Growth
https://www.rmi.org/about/news-and-press/press-release-rmi-evgo-report-reveals-utility-rate-structures-support-fast-charging-growth/
RMI’s study found that, under certain electricity tariffs, current demand charges can make up as much as 90 percent of the monthly bill of operational public DC fast chargers, driving the cost of delivered electricity as high as $1.96 per kilowatt-hour (kWh) during summer months in some locations. These charges are nearly seven times as high as the current gasoline equivalent cost of $0.29/kWh, meaning it is difficult for DC Fast charging providers like EVgo to remain competitive with the costs of operating petroleum-fueled vehicles.

That's from last April and gas prices are higher now.

Re restarting a charge, as there was a fee ($7.95? $9.95?) each time you did that, it made the electricity far too expensive once they jacked the rate to $0.20/minute. Now, at a flat per minute rate and longer limits it's a much better deal. At the current California come-on PAYG price of $0.20/minute and 50kW QC, that's ($0.20/min) / (5/6 kWh/min) = $0.24/kWh from the wall, or about $0.27 - $0.28/kWh to the battery assuming no taper, so comparable to HEVs. At $0.25/min it's more expensive than a high-mpg HEV, and if it goes up to $0.35/min it's break-even with many conventional ICEs. $1.50/hr. for L2 is a decent price, a few cents/kWh less than QC:

Through June 30th, 2018, EVgo is offering a promotional rate at DC fast chargers in California. Customers on the Membership plan will pay only $0.15/minute for DC Fast charging, and customers on Pay As You Go will pay $0.20/minute. After June 30th, California pricing will match our other markets: Between $0.18-0.21/minute for members and $0.25-0.35/minute for Pay As You Go drivers. The monthly membership fee, session length and Level 2 rates will not change after the promotional period.

For me, gas equivalent cost is around $0.75/kwh (maybe a bit less now that gas has dropped a little bit, but no lower than $0.60/kwh) and that is with our other plug-in hybrid that gets around 45 MPG on pure gas. This doesn't factor in oil changes, etc. either.

The membership version of EvGo makes the cost around $0.30/kwh. As for demand charges, most of the locations I have seen around here avoid this by using Solar where possible. Alternatively there are now a few companies that are providing setups that use old EV batteries to store electricity when it is cheap and use that when electricity when it is expensive. But even so, many of the locations that have EvGo chargers installed have told me that they have been able to negotiate with the utility companies so that demand charges do not apply to the chargers. I'm sure there are locations where that doesn't work, but overall the majority, at least here in Southern California have been able to do so.

The big issue that EvGo is going to run up against are the fact that there are getting to be more and more free quick chargers being made available at various dealers, many of whom don't care what type of vehicle you have or where it was purchased. In addition, there are some free ones being setup at park and rides and other city and state owned locations. There are also companies like Mitsubishi that provide free quick charging after business hours at its headquarters in Cypress. Thanks to the free quick chargers that are available, I usually only use EvGo around twice a month when I can't get to one of these locations for various reasons. Now at twice a month, the $9.99 plan makes perfect sense for me, as it means I realistically will spend about $10 a month on charging, but it also means that EvGo isn't going to make a huge profit off of me.

SageBrush
Posts: 2805
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: GCR: eVgo simplifies, cuts electric-car fast charging prices nationwide

Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:13 am

cmwade77 wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
cmwade77 wrote:As to if they can do this an be profitable, I am sure they can, in general most large business (which is where most EvGo chargers are located) pay around $0.05 to $0.10 per kwh.

You are neglecting demand charges, so do not be so sure.

This is what businesses that offer free charging have been telling me, so I am just going off of what they say.

It depends what you ask.
Ask a business with a fast charger what their demand charges are.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

cmwade77
Posts: 134
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:04 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Nov 2017

Re: GCR: eVgo simplifies, cuts electric-car fast charging prices nationwide

Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:39 pm

SageBrush wrote:
cmwade77 wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
You are neglecting demand charges, so do not be so sure.

This is what businesses that offer free charging have been telling me, so I am just going off of what they say.

It depends what you ask.
Ask a business with a fast charger what their demand charges are.

I have and all of them I have spoken with say that they have been able to negotiate with their utility company to eliminate them for the EVSEs, as most utility companies in California are given mandates to be EV friendly.

SageBrush
Posts: 2805
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: GCR: eVgo simplifies, cuts electric-car fast charging prices nationwide

Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:19 pm

cmwade77 wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
cmwade77 wrote:This is what businesses that offer free charging have been telling me, so I am just going off of what they say.

It depends what you ask.
Ask a business with a fast charger what their demand charges are.

I have and all of them I have spoken with say that they have been able to negotiate with their utility company to eliminate them for the EVSEs, as most utility companies in California are given mandates to be EV friendly.

Color me skeptical, and I apologize in advance.

What companies are you talking about here ?
For a * 50 kWh* station, right ?
How did the company isolate the charging station from the overall consumption and power pattern ?
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GRA
Posts: 9273
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: GCR: eVgo simplifies, cuts electric-car fast charging prices nationwide

Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:10 pm

eVgo's already talking about going to 150kW base, and they're also building the one in Baker, CA with 4 x 350kW chargers (now supposed to open this month). They aren't going to duck demand charges on that one, although only Porsche's Mission-e will be able to use the full rate initially. They're going to need solar plus cheap storage. Solar is already part of it, but I don't recall seeing anything about storage. See: http://www.hybridcars.com/new-year-brings-ultra-fast-charging-us-highways/ for the state of things as of Jan. 2, 2018.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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