Chademo vs SAE

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A good article, I would agree.

Asking to leave California’s many Leaf owners stranded, and to favor still non-existent owners of still non-existent EVs that comply with a still non-existent SAE standard, amounts to a real declaration of war, and a rather hamfisted one.
 
EricBayArea said:
I want to see video of that meeting at the with California Government where GM got booed :)
I want to see proof of
CHAdeMO has been adopted by the tens of thousands who bought Nissan’s Leaf and some of Mitsubishi’s iMIEV.
Again with the tens of thousands. I want to see numbers. How many Leaf's out there actually have a CHAdeMO charger? There's less than 12K Leaf's in the U.S. How many folks spent the extra 2 grand on the SL? How many of the Leaf's on the road are leased and the owners won't care in a year or two? How many folks live in states and regions without ANY quick chargers?

I think the numbers are way smaller than Nissan's letting on.
 
At least Nissan's numbers are in motion.
SAE-GM current=Zero planned=Zero (or name the car and production date)

SAE-GM has had since the EV-1 to figure this out. Time to do your business or let others do theirs.
 
DANandNAN said:
EricBayArea said:
I want to see video of that meeting at the with California Government where GM got booed :)
I want to see proof of

Because somebody made this up? I doubt there is any "proof" that would satisfy you, and it becomes crystal clear that you are nothing more than a stooge for GM.

many Leaf's out there actually have a CHAdeMO charger? There's less than 12K Leaf's in the U.S. How many folks spent the extra 2 grand on the SL? How many of the Leaf's on the road are leased and the owners won't care in a year or two? How many folks live in states and regions without ANY quick chargers?I think the numbers are way smaller than Nissan's letting on.

Lots of accusations, and the facts are easy enough to get. Most LEAFs have Chademo (like 90%+).
 
DANandNAN said:
smkettner said:
At least Nissan's numbers are in motion.
An extremely vocal extremely minor minority.

according to Nissan, the majority of Leaf's sold included the QC port so they made it standard for 2012. many of us got the port for free with participation in the EV project, you know, the project studying the adoption of EV's in the US, the one that requires a CHAdeMO port in order to participate.

In some ways I don't really give a crap what the standard will be, what I do feel strongly about is getting a decent network in place as soon as possible and since the SAE sat on it's hands for years, that means moving forward with what is here now. I don't think Nissan cares as much about what standard is adopted down the line as they do about moving forward now while there is momentum. Throwing the breaks on CHAdeMO and waiting for the SAE standard to work it's way down the pipes will delay the development of a QC network for years. It is critical to get quick charging in place while the EV project is still underway because I believe it will be the DC QC network that will show just how viable EV's are in the study. Right now there is great debate as to whether L2 should be installed everywhere (some even still argue for L1) or whether it's L3 that is the key to public infrastructure... we need to find out which combination of L2 and L3 is the best use of resources by studying use patterns, before and after each are introduced and we have that opportunity now. Regardless of the standard, getting the network up and running will be very crucial to determining what is needed and replicated across the country, using whatever standard is then agreed upon. Some potential waste now will provide very useful information needed to improve efficient use of resources going forward. the biggest challenge to QC installs is finding willing parties and having adequate power supply. Mass produced charging stations in the future will bring down the price point and if a new standards wins out it will be relatively inexpensive to retrofit or replace the old stations. Honestly, the money being thrown at this is peanuts compared to what we spend defending oil interests abroad, subsidizing big oil and gas car manufacturers here at home. If you need a cause and want to get worked up about waste, dig a little into defense contracts, everything spent on EV's is jump change in comparison. EV's offer the prospects of energy independence which is critical to national security.
 
DANandNAN said:
An extremely vocal extremely minor minority.

The vast majority of current electric car owners.

Standards are wonderful things. Everyone wants their own.

If GM is really serious, and I'd rather wait to see what they do rather than listen to what they say, then GM will need to sell tens of thousands of Spark BEVs just to catch up with where Nissan is now. Maybe they will, I hope so.

May the plug with the most cars win!
 
GaslessInSeattle said:
DANandNAN said:
smkettner said:
At least Nissan's numbers are in motion.
An extremely vocal extremely minor minority.

according to Nissan, the majority of Leaf's sold included the QC port so they made it standard for 2012. many of us got the port for free with participation in the EV project, you know, the project studying the adoption of EV's in the US, the one that requires a CHAdeMO port in order to participate.

In some ways I don't really give a crap what the standard will be, what I do feel strongly about is getting a decent network in place as soon as possible and since the SAE sat on it's hands for years, that means moving forward with what is here now. I don't think Nissan cares as much about what standard is adopted down the line as they do about moving forward now while there is momentum. Throwing the breaks on CHAdeMO and waiting for the SAE standard to work it's way down the pipes will delay the development of a QC network for years. It is critical to get quick charging in place while the EV project is still underway because I believe it will be the DC QC network that will show just how viable EV's are in the study. Right now there is great debate as to whether L2 should be installed everywhere (some even still argue for L1) or whether it's L3 that is the key to public infrastructure... we need to find out which combination of L2 and L3 is the best use of resources by studying use patterns, before and after each are introduced and we have that opportunity now. Regardless of the standard, getting the network up and running will be very crucial to determining what is needed and replicated across the country, using whatever standard is then agreed upon. Some potential waste now will provide very useful information needed to improve efficient use of resources going forward. the biggest challenge to QC installs is finding willing parties and having adequate power supply. Mass produced charging stations in the future will bring down the price point and if a new standards wins out it will be relatively inexpensive to retrofit or replace the old stations. Honestly, the money being thrown at this is peanuts compared to what we spend defending oil interests abroad, subsidizing big oil and gas car manufacturers here at home. If you need a cause and want to get worked up about waste, dig a little into defense contracts, everything spent on EV's is jump change in comparison. EV's offer the prospects of energy independence which is critical to national security.
I agree it's likely more than half (a majority) of the Leafs that have the CHAdeMO. But, I'm interested in how many cars could actually be affected. And, of those, how many owners actually would use it. The numbers are actually very small. Tony Williams posted a survey and almost no one wanted to pay what DC charging cost in electricity. Then there's the cost of the units, the maintenance and everything else. If no Leaf owners are going to pay for it, why should this even be a problem?
 
DANandNAN said:
...I agree it's likely more than half (a majority) of the Leafs that have the CHAdeMO. But, I'm interested in how many cars could actually be affected. And, of those, how many owners actually would use it. The numbers are actually very small. Tony Williams posted a survey and almost no one wanted to pay what DC charging cost in electricity. Then there's the cost of the units, the maintenance and everything else. If no Leaf owners are going to pay for it, why should this even be a problem?

Actually, as Tony said, it's more like 90% of Leaf's have QC. As for the survey, it's a small survey and based on what may happen in CA, if I recall. Up here in WA state there is not much talk of high demand charges. Also you are not hearing of high demand charges coming out of Oregon either. the cost of a QC is not necessarily going to be high here, in fact they will be free for some time to come. How many cars would be effected would depend on how long it would take for this all to get worked out. Considering how slow the SAE has been to act so far, it's going to take years for another standard to get rolled out, as Tony points out. The question isn't how many Leaf owners would be effected but instead how the whole industry would be effected waiting for years on a new standard... it would be devastating, IMHO. Right here, right now, we have a viable way of demonstrating just how flexible EV's can be given a decent QC network. Time is of the essence. If the SAE's standard where really ready to ship now, then we'd be having a whole different debate but the reality is that there is no intention of swift adoption of anything EV if left up to the SAE.
 
It's all BS. Chademo is here, so we should be installing that. When (and IF) we get significant numbers of SAE DC cars out there, or at least the imminent release of significant numbers, DCQCs can then be retrofitted as needed. Anything else is pure obstructionism at this point.
 
rdhauser said:
I really liked the answer of Mariana Gerzanych to a question about which plug would be on the chargers.... "both" because it's a relatively small portion of the cost of the charger.
So currently half the QC spots will go unused waiting for GM and their group of cronies to roll a car off the line. :roll:
 
smkettner said:
So currently half the QC spots will go unused waiting for GM and their group of cronies to roll a car off the line. :roll:
Not really. When the time comes (and no one can even BUY a plug right now), I'm thinking they will be putting two plugs on a single charger making each station available for either type of car.
 
GaslessInSeattle said:
Actually, as Tony said, it's more like 90% of Leaf's have QC. As for the survey, it's a small survey and based on what may happen in CA, if I recall. Up here in WA state there is not much talk of high demand charges. Also you are not hearing of high demand charges coming out of Oregon either. the cost of a QC is not necessarily going to be high here, in fact they will be free for some time to come. How many cars would be effected would depend on how long it would take for this all to get worked out. Considering how slow the SAE has been to act so far, it's going to take years for another standard to get rolled out, as Tony points out. The question isn't how many Leaf owners would be effected but instead how the whole industry would be effected waiting for years on a new standard... it would be devastating, IMHO. Right here, right now, we have a viable way of demonstrating just how flexible EV's can be given a decent QC network. Time is of the essence. If the SAE's standard where really ready to ship now, then we'd be having a whole different debate but the reality is that there is no intention of swift adoption of anything EV if left up to the SAE.
90% based on what? I would like to an estimate from someone in the know, someone from Nissan. And, demonstrating how flexible EV can be? The percentage of CHAdeMO users is small for long distance hauls because almost no one wants to sit for 50 minutes every 65 miles or risk shortening the life of their non-temperature regulated battery. If you want to show off, the EV in you're commercial is going to have a MUCH bigger battery or use a Volt because folks aren't willing to sit and wait - even current Leaf owners.

I think most would agree that as long as no additional tax dollars get spent on CHAdeMO then there is no problem. Sorry, but spending a lot of money on so few, when so many won't use it is a huge black eye for EV. Imagine Fox News talking about a taxpayer-funded CHAdeMO infrastructure roll out that only a few thousand cars can use. Then a followup story about the continued roll out of taxpayer-funded CHAdeMO stations after 8 major manufacturers have announced they will use the standard SAE Combo. I'm sure they'd have a great time talking about that and EV would take an enormous hit.

But, yeah, manufacturers making a joint decision to use a standard is the problem.
 
davewill said:
smkettner said:
So currently half the QC spots will go unused waiting for GM and their group of cronies to roll a car off the line. :roll:
Not really. When the time comes (and no one can even BUY a plug right now), I'm thinking they will be putting two plugs on a single charger making each station available for either type of car.

It certainly won't be as simple as bolting on an SAE/GM USA specification (or Euro specification, if in Europe) Frankenplug. There will be many years of hurdles to jump through, just like there was/is for ChadeMo. Just the UL certification will take a year or more.
 
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