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walterbays
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Re: Chademo vs SAE

Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:24 pm

JeffN wrote:
aarond12 wrote:What happens if/when Tesla opens up their Supercharger standard for the rest of the world?

http://www.engadget.com/2014/06/09/tesl ... r-patents/


Done.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/all-our ... belong-you
Kind of. So far they're offering it only on the condition that other companies also adopt their business model of bundling lifetime free charging into the price of the car. That works rather differently for a long range EV whose only use of Superchargers is occasional inter-city travel, than for a short range EV which relies on regular quick charging for use in the local region.

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Re: Chademo vs SAE

Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:21 pm

walterbays wrote:
JeffN wrote:
aarond12 wrote:What happens if/when Tesla opens up their Supercharger standard for the rest of the world?

http://www.engadget.com/2014/06/09/tesl ... r-patents/


Done.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/all-our ... belong-you
Kind of. So far they're offering it only on the condition that other companies also adopt their business model of bundling lifetime free charging into the price of the car. That works rather differently for a long range EV whose only use of Superchargers is occasional inter-city travel, than for a short range EV which relies on regular quick charging for use in the local region.

The patents are "free" now so one or more other companies can create supercharger stations and support in other cars but, sure, if another company wants their cars to be able use Tesla's own charging infrastructure they would still have to cut a deal for that access.

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Re: Chademo vs SAE

Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:49 pm

MikeinDenver wrote:
GRA wrote:
jsongster wrote:So... we could all just support improving the already working fine but clumsy one.... which the gun connectors do... or once again in the interest of proprietary/nationalist idiocy, redesign the wheel. Colossally stupid in my opinion.

Already working fine? Do you have any Blink CHAdeMO QCs in your area?

Just because Blink may not work well isn't the fault of CHAdeMO. The two at dealers near me I have used and never had a problem.

Sure, but jsongster was implying that CHAdeMO is a fully mature technology and standard, and that's not the case. It's gotten better since it was introduced, and the same will undoubtedly occur as CCS teething troubles are addressed.
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Re: Chademo vs SAE

Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:43 pm

I misunderstood your post then. I read through this whole thread and to me it seems as though companies are just trying to do the whole Betamax vs. VHS all over again. Which doesn't benefit the consumer one bit.
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Re: Chademo vs SAE

Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:49 pm

MikeinDenver wrote:I misunderstood your post then. I read through this whole thread and to me it seems as though companies are just trying to do the whole Betamax vs. VHS all over again. Which doesn't benefit the consumer one bit.

I disagree, to a certain extent. In an ideal world we'd have a single standard early, and every company would do their best to improve that standard. In the real world, CHAdeMO in the U.S. was only being installed with government funds, and once those ran out Nissan was doing virtually nothing to increase CHAdeMO installations. It was only the embarrassment of Tesla with their SC network, and the potential competition from CCS that got them off their butts even a little. Competition is good; if less than the ideal efficiency, it's a lot better than nothing.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Chademo vs SAE

Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:38 pm

GRA wrote:
MikeinDenver wrote:I misunderstood your post then. I read through this whole thread and to me it seems as though companies are just trying to do the whole Betamax vs. VHS all over again. Which doesn't benefit the consumer one bit.

I disagree, to a certain extent. In an ideal world we'd have a single standard early, and every company would do their best to improve that standard. In the real world, CHAdeMO in the U.S. was only being installed with government funds, and once those ran out Nissan was doing virtually nothing to increase CHAdeMO installations. It was only the embarrassment of Tesla with their SC network, and the potential competition from CCS that got them off their butts even a little. Competition is good; if less than the ideal efficiency, it's a lot better than nothing.


I do agree it is definitely not black and white. Competition is good when it increases options for consumers. But in this case it is bad for consumers in that it is causing fewer stations to be installed because government entities and private companies don't know which to back. I feel it would benefit consumers if all the auto makers got behind CHAdeMO, improved it and rolled it out. With more manufacturers behind it that benefits us all.
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Re: Chademo vs SAE

Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:08 pm

Any bets that Elon's patent-release is (at least in part) to throw Tesla's QC protocol into this fray? Why would a low-volume mfr like Porsche or BMW just use the Tesla plug and sign on ($$) to the growing Supercharger network?

Nobody is going to buy an electric Panamera on the slim hope that Evgo puts in coast-to-coast Frankenplugs....
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Re: Chademo vs SAE

Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:58 am

GRA wrote:
MikeinDenver wrote:I misunderstood your post then. I read through this whole thread and to me it seems as though companies are just trying to do the whole Betamax vs. VHS all over again. Which doesn't benefit the consumer one bit.

I disagree, to a certain extent. In an ideal world we'd have a single standard early, and every company would do their best to improve that standard. In the real world, CHAdeMO in the U.S. was only being installed with government funds, and once those ran out Nissan was doing virtually nothing to increase CHAdeMO installations. It was only the embarrassment of Tesla with their SC network, and the potential competition from CCS that got them off their butts even a little. Competition is good; if less than the ideal efficiency, it's a lot better than nothing.


And the threat of Frankenplug opened up the CHAdeMO specification, much like Tesla has just done.

I personally think it will be tough for Japan to adopt Supercharger, and they surely won't adopt Frankenplug, but if just one company builds a Supercharger and one auto manufacturer adopts Frankenplug (I'm rooting for Mercedes), then the chips just might fall in the US in favor of Supercharger.

For Europe, I think Germany and German auto makers would otherwise continue to push for regulatory methods to force Frankenplug in Europe, however so far, they haven't been altogether successful blocking CHAdeMO, Supercharger and Chameleon. If just Mercedes jumps ship (remember, they are part owners of Tesla and have not built a single car with any DC or fast AC charging standard), things would get interesting very fast.

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Re: Chademo vs SAE

Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:18 pm

MikeinDenver wrote:
GRA wrote:I disagree, to a certain extent. In an ideal world we'd have a single standard early, and every company would do their best to improve that standard. In the real world, CHAdeMO in the U.S. was only being installed with government funds, and once those ran out Nissan was doing virtually nothing to increase CHAdeMO installations. It was only the embarrassment of Tesla with their SC network, and the potential competition from CCS that got them off their butts even a little. Competition is good; if less than the ideal efficiency, it's a lot better than nothing.

I do agree it is definitely not black and white. Competition is good when it increases options for consumers. But in this case it is bad for consumers in that it is causing fewer stations to be installed because government entities and private companies don't know which to back. I feel it would benefit consumers if all the auto makers got behind CHAdeMO, improved it and rolled it out. With more manufacturers behind it that benefits us all.

I have seen no evidence at all that not knowing which standard to back was holding up QC installations. The lack of a profitable business model absent govt. subsidies did that, as the bankruptcies of Ecotality and 350Green showed, and CCGI, which bought out many of the failing companies' networks including those two, has horrible financials.

But just ask yourself this question, would we all be better off using MS-DOS, or did we benefit from Apple's introduction of a GUI, even though it meant we had (and have) competing standards?
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The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Chademo vs SAE

Sun Jun 15, 2014 4:55 pm

GRA wrote:I have seen no evidence at all that not knowing which standard to back was holding up QC installations.


NY State has said that they have not installed Quick Chargers at the Service Plazas on the NYS Thruway because of the uncertainty with charging standards. They are waiting to see which standard "wins".
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