Service wiring for my 3 car 240VAC electric charging garage!

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
JohnKuthe said:
Are you a license electrician?

There ARE such things as building codes, etc, you know.

John Kuthe...
Click to expand...


I can get a license for cents, but it doesn't change anything. It is just a paper.
What does change everything is skills - many "special situations" are never learned from books.
As far as I've seen electrical work done at homes (holy internet), it is often ridiculous.

All this "legal" stuff is just to be fancy. A good electrician will always do a job better than required.
Surface mounted PVC pipe for example, is useless for ceilings/walls, as a precautionary measure.
It might help with fastening the cables as it is easier to fasten one sturdy pipe rather than 3 soft cables.
Might even look aesthetically nice. PVC conduit making company will be extremely sad if you don't
buy their product.


Just giving estimations. 1meter=3.3feet
single phase earthed 400V cable for 32A non-soil-mounted: 2€/meter.
Fasteners for that cable, wood surface, 9€/100pack
Just-for-fun PVC pipe 0.4€/meter, I would not use. Would use classical solution (picture below)
Cable installation estimation time per running meter: 30meter/hour.
Junction time required: 15 junctions/hour.
circuit breaker 10€ each, 5 minutes installation time, plus 2 junctions.
PVC wall box for up to 5 circuit breakers, 15€. http://g04.a.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1BP5OMpXXXXbVXVXXq6xXFXXXz/2-5-way-mini-font-b-circuit-b-font-font-b-breaker-b-font-font-b.jpg
Estimated time for wooden 1 car garage 2-3hours of work, 100€ on materials, 3-4 hours for 3 car garage.
Tools required, screwdriver, hammer, power tool to make holes if necessary.
Required power offline time, 1 minute (actually doable without cutting the power, but that is not "according to codes")


FH02APR_WIRGAR_04.jpg
 
JohnKuthe said:
arnis said:
Got my first estimate from my electrician, $6800 to upgrade the inside systems+electrical panel and run a PVC pipe to run two service lines to the garage: One 50 amp 240VAC for electric car charging and one 20amp 120VAC for lights, garage door openers, etc.
Click to expand...

What the heck is going on. This should take few hours to build. up to 100 bucks for equipment. WTF :?

Buy me a plane ticket, I'll do your garage for 1000 bucks :lol:
Click to expand...

Are you a license electrician?

There ARE such things as building codes, etc, you know.

John Kuthe...
Click to expand...


4th generation! and what they are telling you is correct!

You are not supposed to run multiple circuits to a detached structure!! and sure as hell not use PVC!! Non metallic conduit is allowed and recommended for sub grade runs.

A proper sub panel with grounding is the proper method, How many people need to tell you this along with the code numbers be for you grasp it?

Words are important PVC is NOT allowed under ANY jurisdiction! Non metallic EMT is (Yes it is made with pvc but all so has flame inhibitors and other additives)

So I hope your guy is doing it proper if not do not dare to complain when the city nails you!
 
JohnKuthe said:
wwhitney said:
JohnKuthe said:
Building codes vary widely among areas
Click to expand...
I forgot to give you the National Electric Code reference, it is section 225.30. I would be very surprised if the NEC is not in force in your area.

So I suggest you get an electrical permit for the work being done, ...

Cheers, Wayne
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's gonna be a long drawn out process, what with checking with the building inspectors "all the time". Or at least as often as WE (my electrician and I) have to! But I learned some important lessons, like it's easier to get forgiveness than permission! ;-)

John Kuthe...
Click to expand...

Well, sometimes it isn't "easier to get forgiveness than permission! ;-) "

My daughter was doing a report on careers, and I suggested interviewing our local building inspector. He turned out to be a great guy, willing to sit down and talk with us and answer her questions. So during the interview my daughter asked why it was so important to be a building inspector.

He told a story, where a guy had replaced his water heater, and improperly wired it. Now, at some point the guy had a roofer go up for some unrelated situation. The roofer then proceeded to touch a piece of metal on the roof, and was electrocuted. Dead. No forgiveness, no way to ask for forgiveness.

Now, both my daughter and myself walked out of his office with a great respect for him and the important job he does.

I don't think this, at least as currently described, rises to that level, but it is essential to follow the NEC, at a minimum and have the work inspected.
 
sub3marathonman said:
JohnKuthe said:
wwhitney said:
I forgot to give you the National Electric Code reference, it is section 225.30. I would be very surprised if the NEC is not in force in your area.

So I suggest you get an electrical permit for the work being done, ...

Cheers, Wayne
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's gonna be a long drawn out process, what with checking with the building inspectors "all the time". Or at least as often as WE (my electrician and I) have to! But I learned some important lessons, like it's easier to get forgiveness than permission! ;-)

John Kuthe...
Click to expand...

Well, sometimes it isn't "easier to get forgiveness than permission! ;-) "

My daughter was doing a report on careers, and I suggested interviewing our local building inspector. He turned out to be a great guy, willing to sit down and talk with us and answer her questions. So during the interview my daughter asked why it was so important to be a building inspector.

He told a story, where a guy had replaced his water heater, and improperly wired it. Now, at some point the guy had a roofer go up for some unrelated situation. The roofer then proceeded to touch a piece of metal on the roof, and was electrocuted. Dead. No forgiveness, no way to ask for forgiveness.

Now, both my daughter and myself walked out of his office with a great respect for him and the important job he does.

I don't think this, at least as currently described, rises to that level, but it is essential to follow the NEC, at a minimum and have the work inspected.
Click to expand...

That's a stupidly tragic story! BummerMan! :-(

No I fully understand the need to stick just within code on things electrical. My electrician said the inspector may require what he called a "man door" in the garage for such an electrical application like this, probably for fire escape!. But I will do that if it's necessary because THIS IS GONNA HAPPEN!

John Kuthe...
 
And I JUST emailed my electrician and he told me his plans are to run a 100 amp 240VAC line out to the garage in buried PVC pipe and run it to a garage subpanel, then split off the 120VAC for the garage in that garage subpanel and run three 240 VAC lines to the three garage spaces and the 120VAC lines to everything in the garage that needs it!

John Kuthe...
 
JohnKuthe said:
Statements like "Not quite this bad but he doesn't know what he is doing. " are a bunch of BS!! Are YOU a licensed electrician? If not then shut up!

John Kuthe...
Click to expand...
You're pretty combative for a guy coming here asking for free advice. The advice you have received is correct. Perhaps you misunderstood your electrician and misquoted his design intent on the forum. Being called out on the code issues with this design (in a kind and respectful way) is not a justification to go all Rambo on your fellow forumites.

JohnKuthe said:
Are you a license electrician?

There ARE such things as building codes, etc, you know.

John Kuthe...
Click to expand...
Couldn't have said it better myself.

JohnKuthe said:
I learned some important lessons, like it's easier to get forgiveness than permission! ;-)John Kuthe...
Click to expand...

Electricity is not the most forgiving source of energy to work with. I would recommend treating it with respect. Just like you should treat this forum with respect.
 
Aussie said:
JohnKuthe said:
Statements like "Not quite this bad but he doesn't know what he is doing. " are a bunch of BS!! Are YOU a licensed electrician? If not then shut up!

John Kuthe...
Click to expand...
You're pretty combative for a guy coming here asking for free advice. The advice you have received is correct. Perhaps you misunderstood your electrician and misquoted his design intent on the forum. Being called out on the code issues with this design (in a kind and respectful way) is not a justification to go all Rambo on your fellow forumites.

JohnKuthe said:
Are you a license electrician?

There ARE such things as building codes, etc, you know.

John Kuthe...
Click to expand...
Couldn't have said it better myself.

JohnKuthe said:
I learned some important lessons, like it's easier to get forgiveness than permission! ;-)John Kuthe...
Click to expand...

Electricity is not the most forgiving source of energy to work with. I would recommend treating it with respect. Just like you should treat this forum with respect.
Click to expand...

I don't think I said that. And I'm not really asking for advice except from my electrician. I'm just kind of announcing my grand plans! And I know a bit about running electrical panels, etc. I made a subpanel to the attached garage in a house my Ex and I owned, for powering about four I think 8 foot fluorescent tube fixtures! THAT was the best lighted garage I ever saw!


And yes electrical power is nothing to play with! If you like living and stuff :)

John Kuthe...
 
Two days ago wired a street kiosk to the grid.
3 phases, earth and neutral. 9AWG each, 32A times three. Had my fingers working really hard.
Those copper bastards are stubborn :lol:
9 breakers, extra meter, time relay. Asked 60€, took me like 2 hours plus running to the store for supplies :)

Oh, sorry, nobody died, even though 400V AC might feel extremely hazardous :eek:

Anyway, people can waste as much money as they want. But making lots of stuff everywhere doesn't make it more safe,
actually makes it worse. There is no need to have another box in the garage as 2 EVSEs are already "boxes".
One breaker will break no matter how far it is. Line can be continued right inside the first EVSE. Appropriate
IP rating and it will also look neat. Screw terminals pretty much always have room for two conductors on one side.
It's the safest (least amount of cuts and joints), fastest, most reliable method doing two EVSE's. In series.
And one fuse for two EVSEs is absolutely fine. Reason is: breakers are rated for cables, not for devices*.
So for each specific wire gauge there is a breaker. Slight variations due to mounting method (in the wall, on the wall, ground).

This is how massive warehouses and other rooms have their lighting fixtures connected: in series. All connections are
made inside the devices itself. That's the best way. Of course there is recommended maximum for chains. And it's cheaper
to run many thinner cable branches than one massive one. Plus lots of fingers will be saved from the pain :lol:


* Those devices that require additional fusing have their own fuse inside.


Note: if you do not do electricity, don't try to be critical to anything I wrote here.
 
arnis said:
Two days ago wired a street kiosk to the grid.
3 phases, earth and neutral. 9AWG each, 32A times three. Had my fingers working really hard.
Those copper bastards are stubborn :lol:
9 breakers, extra meter, time relay. Asked 60€, took me like 2 hours plus running to the store for supplies :)

Oh, sorry, nobody died, even though 400V AC might feel extremely hazardous :eek:

Anyway, people can waste as much money as they want. But making lots of stuff everywhere doesn't make it more safe,
actually makes it worse. There is no need to have another box in the garage as 2 EVSEs are already "boxes".
One breaker will break no matter how far it is. Line can be continued right inside the first EVSE. Appropriate
IP rating and it will also look neat. Screw terminals pretty much always have room for two conductors on one side.
It's the safest (least amount of cuts and joints), fastest, most reliable method doing two EVSE's. In series.
And one fuse for two EVSEs is absolutely fine. Reason is: breakers are rated for cables, not for devices*.
So for each specific wire gauge there is a breaker. Slight variations due to mounting method (in the wall, on the wall, ground).

This is how massive warehouses and other rooms have their lighting fixtures connected: in series. All connections are
made inside the devices itself. That's the best way. Of course there is recommended maximum for chains. And it's cheaper
to run many thinner cable branches than one massive one. Plus lots of fingers will be saved from the pain :lol:


* Those devices that require additional fusing have their own fuse inside.


Note: if you do not do electricity, don't try to be critical to anything I wrote here.
Click to expand...

When giving electrical advise like this, you should disclose whether or not you are a licensed electrician. I am not, but I know what you described is not done here, and much of it is not allowed under electrical codes here in the USA.
 
The National Electrical Code (NEC), or NFPA 70, is a regionally adoptable standard for the safe installation of electrical wiring and equipment in the United States. It is part of the National Fire Codes series published by the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), a private trade association.[1] Despite the use of the term "national", it is not a federal law. It is typically adopted by states and municipalities in an effort to standardize their enforcement of safe electrical practices.[2] In some cases, the NEC is amended, altered and may even be rejected in lieu of regional regulations as voted on by local governing bodies.
Click to expand...
Therefore there is no such thing like codes for USA. Pretty much same situations in EU - recommendations, not laws. Depends on local government.

And the further I read, the more unreasonable the codes get. Like "anything below 100V is low voltage, and above 100V is high voltage" (low voltage does not require any training as it is safe etc...). Why the frank use rounded number? 90V AC is awesome at giving you a shock. EU is more scientific in terms of that. The whole idea of having safe electrical codes is flawed solely on that range of voltages between 60-100V AC.

And, finally, doing electricity only by certified electricians is as foolish requirement as "only car dealers are allowed to sell vehicles" (khmkhm, Tesla, khm NADA).
Therefore, if one can not quote specific requirement (for each and every requirement) and punishment if that requirement is violated, there is no law. No federal, no local. There are recommendations... for sure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Electrical_Code
 
arnis said:
And the further I read, the more unreasonable the codes get. Like "anything below 100V is low voltage, and above 100V is high voltage"
Click to expand...
That's not part of the NEC, see Article 725 of the NEC. For example, one type of circuit that has relaxed rules is Class 1 Power Limited, which are limited to 30 volts and 1000 volt-amperes.

Cheers, Wayne
 

Similar threads

P
Electric charge door release fix -
Replies
1
Views
168
FinnishCoffee
FinnishCoffee
K
advice on EVSE installation
Replies
10
Views
2K
LeftieBiker
L
N
Questions about a "free" JuiceBox EVSE on Oahu
Replies
4
Views
2K
Nords
N
J
Wonder of all three charging lights will be all solid green, or off in the AM!
Replies
3
Views
1K
JohnKuthe
J
B
11/3/2019 WSJ The Key to Electric Cars Is Batteries
Replies
9
Views
2K
sendler2112
S

Latest posts

Back
Top