Possible Widespread 2018-19 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

IF the entire fall-out of this story is slow QC charging on frequent QC stops during a long trip then Joe's point that daily driving will not be impacted is obviously reasonable. There are two problems however with his stance:

1. While long trips are indeed the minority of days for most owners, that does not change the fact that trips are a problem. People in general want their car to provide good service across a gamut of uses. At $30k+, I would too.

2. I suspect that the QC taper story is the canary in a coal mine, a hint that these car packs are going to be running hot for months at a time every summer and battery degradation is going to be the worst of the LEAF generations. If true it is going to affect a large swath, I'll guess an easy majority of owners. Time will tell, and I appreciate Joe spending his money so we can find out.

Joe6pack said:

I am not going to argue with a pedantic Internet troll whose primary purpose is to sow fear and doubt. The fact is you're wrong.

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All too often the person calling someone a troll behaves more like it than the accused.

A post or argument sounds more credible if it doesn’t descend into name calling someone who’s opinion you don’t agree with.

Joe6pack said:

And now, here is an actual fact:

The limited Nissan LEAF® lithium-ion battery warranty includes coverage for defects in materials or workmanship for 8 years / 100,000 (whichever occurs first) miles as well as protection against capacity loss below 9 bars of capacity (out of 12) as shown on the LEAF’s capacity gauge for a period of 5 years / 60,000 miles (whichever occurs first). For complete information concerning coverage, conditions and exclusions, see your Nissan dealer and read the actual New Vehicle Limited Warranty booklet.

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Are you sure ?
I thought this pack had an 8 yr/100k degradation warranty like the 30 kWh packs. That would be a huge step down.

It is downright dishonest to state that the new LEAF has battery degradation issues in an effort to deter potential EV buyers from considering the new LEAF.

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Not proven, to be sure.
But there are strong hints pointing in that direction; Nissan's track record stinks, and Nissan's corporate record is below contempt.

Joe6pack said:

And I am still going to say that it is an edge case even for the 2018. At 150 miles it is still considered a short-range EV.

Here are some other contentions that are not necessarily facts:

Heat Generation: There is nothing to indicate that the new battery will internally generate heat any greater than the older 30 or 24 kWh packs. An increase in capacity does not inherently mean more internal heat generation. There are too many other factors including battery chemistry, internal resistance, and taper to know whether or not this battery is better or worse for heat generation while quick charging or under normal discharge conditions. We do not have any empirical data to indicate that the 2018 battery is worse for internal heat generation.

Heat Dissipation: Once again, there is nothing, in my opinion, about the 2018 LEAF battery that indicates it will retain heat better or worse than the previous 30 or 24 kWh batteries. We do not know the differences in geometry, mass, thermal capacitance or thermal resistance. We do not have any empirical data to indicate that the 2018 battery is better or worse for heat retention.

Degradation: Who knows? This is a new pack and presumably has different chemistry (cathode, anode, electrolyte) from the previous packs. It is reckless to assume that the past behavior of different packs with different chemistries is indicative of future behavior of the new 2018 LEAF pack. It is downright dishonest to state that the new LEAF has battery degradation issues in an effort to deter potential EV buyers from considering the new LEAF.

And now, here is an actual fact:

The limited Nissan LEAF® lithium-ion battery warranty includes coverage for defects in materials or workmanship for 8 years / 100,000 (whichever occurs first) miles as well as protection against capacity loss below 9 bars of capacity (out of 12) as shown on the LEAF’s capacity gauge for a period of 5 years / 60,000 miles (whichever occurs first). For complete information concerning coverage, conditions and exclusions, see your Nissan dealer and read the actual New Vehicle Limited Warranty booklet.

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1) Call it what you want, 150 is not short range with proper QC ability. People drive 70 mile LEAFS on long trips
2) I never said any thing was changed on the pack other than the size which means more bulk- All LEAFs have this issue some more than others because of pack size which really should diminish it on the capacity basis but not by packaging. If the mass is not the issue then that is even more concerning potentially but the container is the same size and there is more mass in side regardless of packing and I doubt the made a bigger pack more spread out.
3) Degradation is a function of heat and not the point of this which is QC speed reduced by pack mass and lack of cooling
4) Nissan pack warranty- LOL, you just picked the worse possible thing to quote as a fact. Everyone knows how that warranty works, yes the fact that those are the terms of the warranty are true, we all know how well Nissan handles that but it has NOTHING to do with reduced QC speeds. The Nissan pack warranty is one of the worst topics to touch on.

Let me try to be really clear-

No cooling = Slow QC, larger pack is more heat. There are many people that now think 150 mile plus QC now equals long range for them. YOU don't have to think that as that is irrelevant because you don't represent every buyer need nor do I. I can take a 150 mile range Tesla and use SCs and make it a LR car for many paces a 70 mile car could never go but if it were not cooled the SC speed would be MUCH slower and consumers see specs like 90 miles in 30 min and certainly have every reason to expect that charge after charge. Let's cut through the BS, Nissan has to deal with a poor pack design that limits charge speeds because of heat. That's a fact even on a 2011 LEAF. Double the range and some people see an opportunity to drive far with QC stops but may not realize that that's going to take longer than they think and may be really bad with heat and hills, even cooled packs see this strain. It's no secret the pack design in crippled for QC under certain conditions it's just an unfortunate fact and Nissan is painfully aware of that.

When I QC at the top of the grade going over Tioga pass it is one of the few times my wheel well fans sound like a jet engine, the air flow will clear the parking space of leaves. A sealed pack with no TMS is going to really struggle there and it's 143 miles from SF so better do an SC before there. Many drivers would want to go there in a LEAF now that they can but they won't be charging as fast as they think. The full QC rates on a LEAF are already slow at full tilt before throttling.



Does anyone think they will have an even larger pack without going to TMS? What will the excuse be then? 200 plus miles is not a long range car? Bottom line it needs to be fixed or they can call it a commuter car that you can QC even though you don't need to because you can go 200 miles, or is the average commute no longer 40 miles? If you told any EV buyer in 2011 150 miles is not long range they would freak out.

SageBrush said:

Joe6pack said:

And now, here is an actual fact:

The limited Nissan LEAF® lithium-ion battery warranty includes coverage for defects in materials or workmanship for 8 years / 100,000 (whichever occurs first) miles as well as protection against capacity loss below 9 bars of capacity (out of 12) as shown on the LEAF’s capacity gauge for a period of 5 years / 60,000 miles (whichever occurs first). For complete information concerning coverage, conditions and exclusions, see your Nissan dealer and read the actual New Vehicle Limited Warranty booklet.

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Are you sure ?
I thought this pack had an 8 yr/100k degradation warranty like the 30 kWh packs. That would be a huge step down.

It is downright dishonest to state that the new LEAF has battery degradation issues in an effort to deter potential EV buyers from considering the new LEAF.

Click to expand...

Not proven, to be sure.
But there are strong hints pointing in that direction; Nissan's track record stinks, and Nissan's corporate record is below contempt.

Click to expand...

2018 Leafs still carry the 96 month/100,000 mile "below 9 bar " capacity warranty , page 8 manual , no different than the 30kWh packs.

ElectricEddy said:

SageBrush said:

Joe6pack said:

And now, here is an actual fact:

The limited Nissan LEAF® lithium-ion battery warranty includes coverage for defects in materials or workmanship for 8 years / 100,000 (whichever occurs first) miles as well as protection against capacity loss below 9 bars of capacity (out of 12) as shown on the LEAF’s capacity gauge for a period of 5 years / 60,000 miles (whichever occurs first). For complete information concerning coverage, conditions and exclusions, see your Nissan dealer and read the actual New Vehicle Limited Warranty booklet.

Click to expand...

Are you sure ?
I thought this pack had an 8 yr/100k degradation warranty like the 30 kWh packs. That would be a huge step down.

It is downright dishonest to state that the new LEAF has battery degradation issues in an effort to deter potential EV buyers from considering the new LEAF.

Click to expand...

Not proven, to be sure.
But there are strong hints pointing in that direction; Nissan's track record stinks, and Nissan's corporate record is below contempt.

Click to expand...

2018 Leafs still carry the 96 month/100,000 mile "below 9 bar " capacity warranty , page 8 manual , no different than the 30kWh packs.

Click to expand...

Nissan will always cover their ass on this pack and don't expect the warranty to improve unless the get TMS and even then they likely will stick with what they have since it's been "working" for them.

Hi guys, I just did a road trip from Salt Lake City to Phoenix and back last weekend (around 700 miles each way). Let me share some of my observations.

First QC was great. Took about 45 minutes to get to 95%. Starting with the second QC I got limited charge rate. Initially I got capped at 27 kw.

I stopped for the night at the hotel with an L2 charger, but when I got to the QC in Vegas the following day I was again capped at 27 kw. After a long day and several hours on L2 I got to QC in Phoenix, and was limited to 22 kw. The story was the same the following day, even after the car rested for about 15 hours with no charing activity -- QC at the local mall was limited to around 24 kw.

On my way back it got really bad. I had to use L2 prior to arriving in Vegas. QC in Vegas was limited to 19 kw. And then it got worse: I was down to 15 kw on my next QC and down to 14 kw after that. I finally gave up for the night and stayed in a dumpy hotel next to QC in Fillmore for the night. It took over 2 hours to finish my last charge.

In summary, I was expecting this to be a manageable road trip. It turned out worse than I hoped for two reasons:
-- QC times really increase my time on the road when I have to wait 2+ hours instead of 40 minutes.
-- Range at 65 mph is more like 120-130 miles (with no reserves left), not 150-160 I expected. Not a big deal if you have access to QC, but my longest leg between QC stations was around 250 miles, so my L2 charge time for that leg was about 2 hours longer than I had hoped.

tcherniaev said:

First QC was great. Took about 45 minutes to get to 95%. Starting with the second QC I got limited charge rate. Initially I got capped at 27 kw.

I stopped for the night at the hotel with an L2 charger, but when I got to the QC in Vegas the following day I was again capped at 27 kw. After a long day and several hours on L2 I got to QC in Phoenix, and was limited to 22 kw. The story was the same the following day, even after the car rested for about 15 hours with no charing activity -- QC at the local mall was limited to around 24 kw.

On my way back it got really bad. I had to use L2 prior to arriving in Vegas. QC in Vegas was limited to 19 kw. And then it got worse: I was down to 15 kw on my next QC and down to 14 kw after that. I finally gave up for the night and stayed in a dumpy hotel next to QC in Fillmore for the night. It took over 2 hours to finish my last charge.

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Thanks for new data.

What was the outside temperature at daytime and at those nights car was parked?

We clearly see battery didn't cool down enough to get back to full speed charging.

arnis said:

What was the outside temperature at daytime and at those nights car was parked?
We clearly see battery didn't cool down enough to get back to full speed charging.

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Courtesy of the internet, Las Vegas NV:



In the summer the average daily ambient will be 20F (11C) higher

tcherniaev said:

Hi guys, I just did a road trip from Salt Lake City to Phoenix and back last weekend (around 700 miles each way). Let me share some of my observations.

First QC was great. Took about 45 minutes to get to 95%. Starting with the second QC I got limited charge rate. Initially I got capped at 27 kw.

I stopped for the night at the hotel with an L2 charger, but when I got to the QC in Vegas the following day I was again capped at 27 kw. After a long day and several hours on L2 I got to QC in Phoenix, and was limited to 22 kw. The story was the same the following day, even after the car rested for about 15 hours with no charing activity -- QC at the local mall was limited to around 24 kw.

On my way back it got really bad. I had to use L2 prior to arriving in Vegas. QC in Vegas was limited to 19 kw. And then it got worse: I was down to 15 kw on my next QC and down to 14 kw after that. I finally gave up for the night and stayed in a dumpy hotel next to QC in Fillmore for the night. It took over 2 hours to finish my last charge.

In summary, I was expecting this to be a manageable road trip. It turned out worse than I hoped for two reasons:
-- QC times really increase my time on the road when I have to wait 2+ hours instead of 40 minutes.
-- Range at 65 mph is more like 120-130 miles (with no reserves left), not 150-160 I expected. Not a big deal if you have access to QC, but my longest leg between QC stations was around 250 miles, so my L2 charge time for that leg was about 2 hours longer than I had hoped.

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No temp info? I baked mine to nearly 130º and never saw any start under 22 KW.

FYI; I will guess you don't have LEAF Spy since your range comments strongly suggests you have faith in Nissan's guessometer... I would reevaluate that thinking.

As far as letting it sit for a while? Guessing no shade so heat dissipation will be poor. My 30 kwh LEAF would cool to near ambient temps in 8-12 hours. My 40 kwh LEAF heats up slower but I have never seen it get within 15º of ambient in the same 12 - 14 hour time frame

Well EVDRIVER, I guess we are going to have to disagree on this subject. I just don't see the majority of LEAF owners ranking level 3 charging speed very high on the list of must have features.

What would you have them do? Overengineer the car to the point it's too expensive for its target market? Not offer a BEV at all? De-content it until it's basically a Bolt?

Nissan polled their customers and the 2018 LEAF is the result. Time and sales volume will determine if they got it right. So far, things are looking pretty good.

Peace

Joe6pack said:

I just don't see the majority of LEAF owners ranking level 3 charging speed very high on the list of must have features.

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Not anymore, if they are informed and bought the car anyway.

Joe6pack said:

Well EVDRIVER, I guess we are going to have to disagree on this subject. I just don't see the majority of LEAF owners ranking level 3 charging speed very high on the list of must have features.

What would you have them do? Overengineer the car to the point it's too expensive for its target market? Not offer a BEV at all? De-content it until it's basically a Bolt?

Nissan polled their customers and the 2018 LEAF is the result. Time and sales volume will determine if they got it right. So far, things are looking pretty good.

Peace

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I don't QC much, but when I do, I would like it to be as short as possible. So count me amongst the leaf owners that values charging speed pretty high up there. Will it change my life? Of course not, but if I had a choice between a 40kwh Leaf or a 40kwh renault Zoe (which doesn't have the throttling), I would certainly factor it against the Leaf.

When I advocate for EV's amongst my friends, family, and coworkers. "How long to charge" is always one of their questions, along with "How long will the battery last". Maybe against the current pool of EV adopters, it's an "okay" trade-off, but it is a trade-off, and some buyers are NOT willing to make that trade-off, just like under 200-mile range is an unacceptable trade-off for them.

As for "not offer a BEV at all", that's a false choice. And it completely misses the point of this thread.

By being aware of this QC limit, we're better able to "sell" EV's to others. My friends and family would NEVER trust me again if I advocated something that leaves them in a bind just because "I didn't know about that"! Whether or not Nissan changes their QC behavior is up to Nissan, but the rest of us consumers need to know that this limit exists.

That seems fair. I usually get the same questions. When asked how long it takes to charge, I say less than a minute. It only takes a few seconds to plug in when I get home and it's fully charged when I wake up. I've never had anyone ask me about quick charging, but I do get asked how far it can go on a charge.

If I were asked whether the LEAF would make a good "only" car or if it can be used for road trips, I would say no, I couldn't recommend it. That's not really its intended purpose. At this point in the EV revolution, an ice is still the best bet for long distance travel.

Joe6pack said:

That seems fair. I usually get the same questions. When asked how long it takes to charge, I say less than a minute. It only takes a few seconds to plug in when I get home and it's fully charged when I wake up. I've never had anyone ask me about quick charging, but I do get asked how far it can go on a charge.

If I were asked whether the LEAF would make a good "only" car or if it can be used for road trips, I would say no, I couldn't recommend it. That's not really its intended purpose. At this point in the EV revolution, an ice is still the best bet for long distance travel.

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I don't want to quibble, but I felt like I had to address your last comment.

We should NOT accept that. I'm about to be a BEV only household (model 3 on order and should arrive just in time for our 400-mile trip to the mountains ) AND I just managed to convince my sister to get a Leaf, and it will be her ONLY car. Granted her driving style is perfectly matched (doesn't like driving more than 100mi per day) to the 30kwh leaf, but she would be one less convert if the 40kwh charging behavior also applied to the 30kwh leaf. Nissan needs to hear that their customers (some/most?) are turned off by their decision to throttle charging.

Edit: "doesn't like" means she'll do it if she has to.

If refueling speed is as important as this thread would imply, no EV can touch ice.

Joe6pack said:

If refueling speed is as important as this thread would imply, no EV can touch ice.

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PHEVs and FCEVs touch them just fine

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

I'm about to be a BEV only household (model 3 on order and should arrive just in time for our 400-mile trip to the mountains ) .

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Count me as another BEV only household in the next few months

Joe6pack said:

If refueling speed is as important as this thread would imply, no EV can touch ice.

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There is a big difference between ‘which is faster’ and ‘is an EV fast enough’.

For road trips, there is no ICE I would rather take than my EV. Will the ICE ‘charge’ more quickly? Absolutely.
The Model 3 though is plenty fast and won’t have me waiting longer than we take to eat & stretch our legs.

Joe6pack said:

If refueling speed is as important as this thread would imply, no EV can touch ice.

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Your LEAF on a bad day refuels at ~ 1 mile a minute at a DCFC.
A Tesla Model 3 SR refuels at ~ 4.5 - 5 miles a minute

It is why you are stuck also owning an ICE and I am not.