LeftieBiker
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Re: I have a Leaf, so now what?

Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:38 pm

The Prius C is the least popular Prius. I haven't driven one, but the big issues seem to be sluggish acceleration unless you floor it *, very frequent engine starting at low speeds, and a slightly cramped interior. I'd be worried about the power issue the most in your case. See if you can find a Gen III that isn't old but has high miles, for a lower price. Minor body damage also really hurts resale value without affecting drive-ability. They don't mind lots of miles, but the batteries do tend to 'age out' at 10 years or so.

* Since it uses the Gen II drivetrain in a smaller body you'd expect it to accelerate as well as or better than a Gen II, but they may have changed the pedal mapping and just made it seem more sluggish to drive...
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IssacZachary
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Re: I have a Leaf, so now what?

Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:40 pm

GRA wrote:Have you ruled out an Ioniq PHEV then?


Not 100%. It is better priced than the Prime, and has 5 seats (I think). But on the other hand it doesn't have the years of proof that the Prius' have. CR does give it a better than average rating as far as predicted reliability goes. But anything Prius is predicted to have much better than average reliability. At this point I don't want to be changing cars every 5 years. If I can get 10 years out of it that would be nice. But that would mean it has to last at least 300,000 miles.

LeftieBiker wrote:The Prius C is the least popular Prius. I haven't driven one, but the big issues seem to be sluggish acceleration unless you floor it, very frequent engine starting at low speeds, and a slightly cramped interior. I'd be worried about the power issue the most in your case. See if you can find a Gen III that isn't old but has high miles, for a lower price. Minor body damage also really hurts resale value without affecting drive-ability. They don't mind lots of miles, but the batteries do tend to 'age out' at 10 years or so.


Thanks! I do think a regular sized Prius would fit us best. A Gen 3 would be awesome! I am afraid of one with high miles though. I've been sold three Toyotas in my life all on the sales pitch of "high miles don't matter" to find out they do matter, if the car wasn't cared for. If someone hands me over a stack of receipts of all the maintenance that was done on the car I'd be much more obliged to purchase it regardless of the miles.

That's like with my 1985 VW Golf. The previous owner handed me a fat folder full of reciepts and records of all the work done to the car. I can only guess how many miles the car has, but it could very well have more than 700,000 miles on it. (Odometer was replaced 3 times and this one stopped working right before I bought the car.) But as far as the engine and transmission go, in the 7 years that I've owned it nothing has gone majorly wrong. I had a false alarm with a CV joint that went out once, me thinking it was the transmission, and that's about it.

So, if I've had cars with 120,000 miles or so on them that at ended up being nightmares, and a car with +500,000 miles that still runs like a charm but was obviously meticulously maintained, I see where it is very important to not buy a car that could have been neglected or abused. So either low miles or proof how it has been treated and maintained. Either 75,000 miles or less, or a stack of receipts. That's what I want.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: I have a Leaf, so now what?

Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:15 am

I understand on all counts. keep in mind though that the Prius is given only full synthetic oil, and is designed to be low maintenance.

I'd happily sell you my housemate's PIP with low mileage for $12.5k (minor body damage) but she would likely find out, and strongly object. I wish she had leased a Prime and turned this one in.
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Re: I have a Leaf, so now what?

Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:30 pm

IssacZachary wrote:
GRA wrote:Have you ruled out an Ioniq PHEV then?


Not 100%. It is better priced than the Prime, and has 5 seats (I think). But on the other hand it doesn't have the years of proof that the Prius' have. CR does give it a better than average rating as far as predicted reliability goes. But anything Prius is predicted to have much better than average reliability. At this point I don't want to be changing cars every 5 years. If I can get 10 years out of it that would be nice. But that would mean it has to last at least 300,000 miles.

Yes, 5 seats. Having restricted myself to only purchasing new cars that CR rates as better or much better than average, I've never had any trouble getting 15 years out of them, but I put on fewer miles than you do. Even the '65 Impala, which stayed in my family for 23 years from new, only had 240k miles on it when we sold it (still going strong). I can see the possible reliability advantage of a new Prime versus a new Ioniq PHEV as weighing in your decision, but if you are comparing a new Ioniq with full warranties to a several years-old used regular Prius with no warranty or one about to run out, I think the odds run very much in favor of the new car, because you will know everything that's happened to it and what kind of maintenance its had, which does give considerable piece of mind over the long term. Or as my dad always put it, when buying a used car, you're probably buying someone else's problems. Unless you can find a car like your Golf, with a meticulous previous owner who's kept full records (I do the same thing as your Golf's previous owner, including keeping a log book showing all expenditures + reason, including date/odo/mpg/gal/distance per fill/location, etc), you have to take the car's history on faith.

And just because CR gives a particular model a MBA rating doesn't mean you can't get a lemon. My dad's '76 Peugeot 504 Diesel had something major go wrong with it about once a year for the 11 years he had it, and when it got into an accident and the insurance company offered to total it, I told him to take the money and run (got him into an Acura Legend)! I'm guessing it was a Monday or Friday-built car, but maybe it was just the luck of the draw.
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IssacZachary
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Re: I have a Leaf, so now what?

Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:14 am

GRA wrote:Yes, 5 seats. Having restricted myself to only purchasing new cars that CR rates as better or much better than average, I've never had any trouble getting 15 years out of them, but I put on fewer miles than you do. Even the '65 Impala, which stayed in my family for 23 years from new, only had 240k miles on it when we sold it (still going strong). I can see the possible reliability advantage of a new Prime versus a new Ioniq PHEV as weighing in your decision, but if you are comparing a new Ioniq with full warranties to a several years-old used regular Prius with no warranty or one about to run out, I think the odds run very much in favor of the new car, because you will know everything that's happened to it and what kind of maintenance its had, which does give considerable piece of mind over the long term. Or as my dad always put it, when buying a used car, you're probably buying someone else's problems. Unless you can find a car like your Golf, with a meticulous previous owner who's kept full records (I do the same thing as your Golf's previous owner, including keeping a log book showing all expenditures + reason, including date/odo/mpg/gal/distance per fill/location, etc), you have to take the car's history on faith.

And just because CR gives a particular model a MBA rating doesn't mean you can't get a lemon. My dad's '76 Peugeot 504 Diesel had something major go wrong with it about once a year for the 11 years he had it, and when it got into an accident and the insurance company offered to total it, I told him to take the money and run (got him into an Acura Legend)! I'm guessing it was a Monday or Friday-built car, but maybe it was just the luck of the draw.

Well, after taxes and tax credits, a new base Prime is about $21,500 and a new Ioniq would be about $2,000 less than that, or around $19,500. But I think I can get a used Prius with 5 years and 75,000 miles on it for $11,000 with taxes and all. For the price of the Ioniq I could almost buy two used Prii. But which would be a better dollar for mile deal?

Say three guys bought three cars. One a Prime, one an Ioniq and one a used Prius.

Which would last the longest? Probably the Prime. Some have gotten 600,000 miles out of a Prius and those are still running. Of course we have no idea how a Prius will do with a Li Ion battery. How long will it last and how much will it cost to replace? If it's like a regular Prius, perhaps $2,000 every 10 years. But it could be $5,000 every 8 years. We don't know.

What about the Ioniq? Would it last as long as the Prime? I have my doubts. It's a little cheaper at first, but then it might not last 600,000 miles, even with battery replacements. And how will those batteries last and then cost for replacement? If it only lasts 400,000 and the Prime 600,000, the Prime is the better deal.

The guy with the used Prius can buy another one once the first one gives out and will end up spending about the same amount of money as buying a new Prime or Ioniq, maybe a tad more. But how long will a used Prius last him? Say it only lasts 200,000 miles more than original (275,000 miles total), and his second one does to. That would be the same as the new Ioniq , only with two cars. But if both last 300,000 (375,000 miles) then you're at the price of the Prime. If both used Prius last their full 600,000 miles each then the second owner of them will get a total of about a million miles for about the price of the Ioniq or Prime.

Of course the used Prius owner will also have to replace his first battery sooner. So it's not quite a fair comparison.

Am I stingy or what?
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LeftieBiker
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Re: I have a Leaf, so now what?

Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:56 pm

Of course we have no idea how a Prius will do with a Li Ion battery. How long will it last and how much will it cost to replace? If it's like a regular Prius, perhaps $2,000 every 10 years. But it could be $5,000 every 8 years. We don't know.


We actually have a pretty good idea, as the Prius PHEV (aka "PIP") uses a lithium pack. Ours has lost about 10-15% of capacity over just under 5 years. What we don't know is if there was any reserved capacity in the pack. I doubt it was much given the small AER. I haven't priced a replacement, but you can get a quote from a Prius-certified Toyota dealer. Just remember that the Prime pack is larger and will cost more.
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IssacZachary
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Re: I have a Leaf, so now what?

Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:56 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Of course we have no idea how a Prius will do with a Li Ion battery. How long will it last and how much will it cost to replace? If it's like a regular Prius, perhaps $2,000 every 10 years. But it could be $5,000 every 8 years. We don't know.


We actually have a pretty good idea, as the Prius PHEV (aka "PIP") uses a lithium pack. Ours has lost about 10-15% of capacity over just under 5 years. What we don't know is if there was any reserved capacity in the pack. I doubt it was much given the small AER. I haven't priced a replacement, but you can get a quote from a Prius-certified Toyota dealer. Just remember that the Prime pack is larger and will cost more.

I could almost swear the PIP up through 2016 uses a NiMH battery just like the regular Prius. And in 2017 and up the Prime (the new PIP) is the first to use Li ION. But I could be wrong. Anyhow, it seems Toyota only gets better as far as their hybrid tech goes.
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Re: I have a Leaf, so now what?

Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:36 pm

I could almost swear the PIP up through 2016 uses a NiMH battery just like the regular Prius. And in 2017 and up the Prime (the new PIP) is the first to use Li ION. But I could be wrong.


You are mistaken. The PIP uses a lithium pack: that is a major reason why it gets great MPG when not charged, despite the extra weight. The pack accepts regen charge faster than the NiMH packs. It's in the documentation. The Prius Eco also uses a (small) lithium pack.
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Re: I have a Leaf, so now what?

Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:09 pm

IssacZachary wrote:I could almost swear the PIP up through 2016 uses a NiMH battery.

Nope
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LeftieBiker
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Re: I have a Leaf, so now what?

Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:05 pm

I know what he is thinking of: the prototype PIPs that were loaned to American drivers to beta test had two packs: the regular NiMH pack for hybrid mode, and the lithium pack. Toyota decided to drop the NiMH pack and instead reserve about 25% of the lithium battery's capacity for hybrid mode when the car went into final production. In Eco mode the car "steals" charge from the EV-reserved charge to increase fuel economy, but otherwise it works fine that way. You can use an accounting trick to put some of it back by switching to EV mode while going downhill and using Regen, then switching back to hybrid mode when you need to accelerate again.
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