Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

Another option for those who bought and not ready to jump into another car payment. Fenix Power will start offering lease options in Fall 2019. If you are happy with your "new LEAF" range and plan to hold onto your car for at least a few more years, this might be something you will want to start tracking.


http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2018/10/fenix-power-soon-to-offer-leaf-battery.html

DaveinOlyWA said:

Another option

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NOT

DaveinOlyWA said:

Another option for those who bought and not ready to jump into another car payment. Fenix Power will start offering lease options in Fall 2019. If you are happy with your "new LEAF" range and plan to hold onto your car for at least a few more years, this might be something you will want to start tracking.


http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2018/10/fenix-power-soon-to-offer-leaf-battery.html

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That does solve the problem of installing an expensive battery only to lose the investment in the event of a crash. Since you're paying a lease, the lease can simply end in that scenario. I do hope they can get the install price down and allow higher capacities by roll out time.

DaveinOlyWA said:

Another option for those who bought and not ready to jump into another car payment. Fenix Power will start offering lease options in Fall 2019. If you are happy with your "new LEAF" range and plan to hold onto your car for at least a few more years, this might be something you will want to start tracking.


http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2018/10/fenix-power-soon-to-offer-leaf-battery.html

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The cost proposition for this is pretty ridiculous. $1500 (installation) plus $99/month over the course of 5 years is roughly the cost of a new installed battery ($7,500). I think this sort of service is interesting, and I'm surprised Nissan doesn't already provide it. The cost, though, is almost comical. I would much rather purchase a new warrantied battery and live with the degradation over 5 years. If you need 100% of your range for the entire life of the car, it would be more cost effective to buy a car with active thermal management.

webb14leafs said:

DaveinOlyWA said:

Another option for those who bought and not ready to jump into another car payment. Fenix Power will start offering lease options in Fall 2019. If you are happy with your "new LEAF" range and plan to hold onto your car for at least a few more years, this might be something you will want to start tracking.


http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2018/10/fenix-power-soon-to-offer-leaf-battery.html

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The cost proposition for this is pretty ridiculous. $1500 (installation) plus $99/month over the course of 5 years is roughly the cost of a new installed battery ($7,500). I think this sort of service is interesting, and I'm surprised Nissan doesn't already provide it. The cost, though, is almost comical. I would much rather purchase a new warrantied battery and live with the degradation over 5 years. If you need 100% of your range for the entire life of the car, it would be more cost effective to buy a car with active thermal management.

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It would be ridiculous if you were leasing a Nissan pack. That I agree with.

Pretty early on on their business plan, but they do mention TMS and the possibility of higher capacity battery packs in future. They also mention "Tesla like" battery technology, so perhaps degradation would be minimal.

Could be interesting, if they offer a 40 kWh pack with TMS in a couple of years from now.

webb14leafs said:

The cost proposition for this is pretty ridiculous. $1500 (installation) plus $99/month over the course of 5 years is roughly the cost of a new installed battery ($7,500). I think this sort of service is interesting, and I'm surprised Nissan doesn't already provide it. The cost, though, is almost comical. I would much rather purchase a new warrantied battery and live with the degradation over 5 years. If you need 100% of your range for the entire life of the car, it would be more cost effective to buy a car with active thermal management.

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I don't know how you could expect much better from a brand new startup having to do a bunch of R&D. It should get better over time.

Well, I am putting out there because unlike the "next greatest battery" the timeline is rather short and TBH, the tech doesn't seem to be all that steep. I have often wondered why this had not happened much sooner and always wrote it off as the still high price of cells for all but major manufacturers.

But a single company who takes new packs, leases them until they no longer do as advertised then utilizing them in another segment of power storage just makes sense. So instead of realizing 100% of the cost of new cells, they are realizing 100% minus what they can get in the stationary power storage market.

I am really sorry to hear of this price increase. I have always assumed that, like computers, tech gets better, as the prices fall. I cannot believe that the same batteries (24KWH) have GONE UP I price, unless they were made in 1) low volume, and 2) are discontinuing manufacturing.

With price tags like this, an owner of a 24KWH car should be given the option of the higher volume, more current, higher capacity batteries. However, It seems that this may be a strategy to take the cars away from the owners, just like Apple has done to the Iphone. Old phone--- bad, new phone---- good...

A better business model, IMO, would be to charge $8500 for a 40KWH battery, and keep Nissan EV numbers high on the road. Old Leaf owners would have the benefit of improved performance. That would advertise their brand, and reduce he fear of current Gas drivers from trying EVs. When you see more of them, then you think "everybody is doin' it"

There are too few Leafs on the road as it is.... Nissan is cutting its throat if they promote used Leafs to be junked................ Where will brand loyalty and brand confidence be then???????

Very well said, powersurge! This is a right-to-repair issue, or something close to it; the notion that only a serial-number-blessed factory original battery that stores paisley electricity (none of that plaid electricity stuff!) can be fitted to a specific model LEAF is deplorable. A standards body should develop a specification of all the parameters concerned with battery pack operation, and work that into a standard interface for battery packs. We're already part way there with the charging standards; you don't (well, you shouldn't) have any problems connecting a CHAdeMO charging station to the battery of any Tesla, a LEAF, an iMiev (sp?), or a Soul, no matter the model year. And if a battery pack communicates its characteristics in sufficient detail, it should be possible for any vehicle to either make use of whatever potential that battery has, or (as in the case, for example, of a battery with inappropriate voltage) politely explain the incompatibility to the installer. If the LEAF had taken such a modular approach to its battery, it would be possible for an aftermarket future supplier to offer a lighter, solid-state 30kWh battery pack with proper thermal management that could be plugged into an older car.

There'd be no benefit to the vehicle manufacturer for meeting such a standard, of course, unless some large volume customer like the US postal service came along and said "we'll order 50K EV delivery carriers from you if they support the SAEnum-de-num-point-num battery interface".

powersurge said:

Where will brand loyalty and brand confidence be then?

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About where it is now, in the sewer.

DaveinOlyWA said:

Another option for those who bought and not ready to jump into another car payment. Fenix Power will start offering lease options in Fall 2019. If you are happy with your "new LEAF" range and plan to hold onto your car for at least a few more years, this might be something you will want to start tracking.


http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2018/10/fenix-power-soon-to-offer-leaf-battery.html

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I can address people's questions about this product, I'm the founder of Fenix, we've had a ton of questions about how our solution works and have updated our FAQ to address them. But that doesn't cover everything, so let me know if there's something else you'd like to know. https://fenix.systems/faq

powersurge said:

I am really sorry to hear of this price increase. I have always assumed that, like computers, tech gets better, as the prices fall. I cannot believe that the same batteries (24KWH) have GONE UP I price, unless they were made in 1) low volume, and 2) are discontinuing manufacturing.

With price tags like this, an owner of a 24KWH car should be given the option of the higher volume, more current, higher capacity batteries. However, It seems that this may be a strategy to take the cars away from the owners, just like Apple has done to the Iphone. Old phone--- bad, new phone---- good...

A better business model, IMO, would be to charge $8500 for a 40KWH battery, and keep Nissan EV numbers high on the road. Old Leaf owners would have the benefit of improved performance. That would advertise their brand, and reduce he fear of current Gas drivers from trying EVs. When you see more of them, then you think "everybody is doin' it"

There are too few Leafs on the road as it is.... Nissan is cutting its throat if they promote used Leafs to be junked................ Where will brand loyalty and brand confidence be then???????

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Agree. If Nissan had told me they hiked the price, but it was for a 40kWh battery, I would have been overjoyed. Now I'm just frustrated. The packs even have the same physical dimensions, so the only barriers here are adapting the VCM to speak the new CAN bus protocol, QA, qualification, and testing.

And I was (I think) their 8th customer. I have paid my $150 install cost now instead of $1500 next year.

You can also save 25% by using my discount codes: LEAF380 & EVFRISBEE

I will update info on my website I made just to chronicle the upgrade of my LEAF battery: www.LEAF380.com

Sal Cameli
aka UBUYGAS

JohnBysinger said:

DaveinOlyWA said:

Another option for those who bought and not ready to jump into another car payment. Fenix Power will start offering lease options in Fall 2019. If you are happy with your "new LEAF" range and plan to hold onto your car for at least a few more years, this might be something you will want to start tracking.


http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2018/10/fenix-power-soon-to-offer-leaf-battery.html

Click to expand...

I can address people's questions about this product, I'm the founder of Fenix, we've had a ton of questions about how our solution works and have updated our FAQ to address them. But that doesn't cover everything, so let me know if there's something else you'd like to know. https://fenix.systems/faq

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I'm not ready to skewer Nissan just yet. There are worse things than being a victim of early adoption issues. Also, for the overwhelming number of owners, the total cost of ownership is so low that even if the car is a brick in 7 or 8 years, it's still not a huge loss compared to an ICE vehicle.

The real crime is that dealers are so dumb about the car that many buyers can't make an informed decision about range needs and potential battery degradation.

SageBrush said:

powersurge said:

Where will brand loyalty and brand confidence be then?

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About where it is now, in the sewer.

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I think that we, as a Leaf-specific group could do something about this battery price increase issue. IMO, this price increase is not the real issue, but a telltale symptom of what Nissan apparently wants to do in the future...

Either the older 24KWH batteries are no longer produced, or the remaining batteries that will ultimately be made will be sold (as rarity factor) for the highest price possible. This reminds me of when computer hard drives were getting bigger and bigger in the 1990s, and it wasn't worth replacing your old computer's hard drive with the original size drive because they weren't made any more. So, we bought and installed newer, larger hard drives into our older computers... Although we kept the old computers running..... The computer companies did not care because there were plenty of NEW Customers to buy the newer, better faster, evolving computers..... And we "early adopters" had the fun keeping our old machines running.

This increase in battery price and limit of installing the "original size" battery is an indication that Nissan's plan is to make perfectly good cars be taken off the road. As it is, Nissan Leafs are still a rare sight on U.S. roads. I would expect that Nissan would like to increase their LEAF EV presence in all communities, as the change from petroleum to electric cars evolves.

Potential new EV owners WANT to see older EVs on the road. It will pique their interest and give them confidence in purchasing one as a long term investment. So it would be good business for Nissan to keep every Leaf produced on the road, and the initial adopters would be rewarded with a "modded out" Leaf with greater range than ever, but using current, more plentiful, easier to find, and cheaper batteries (like my bigger hard drive analogy).

How about we all, either together or individually, send "letters of displeasure" to Nissan about the benefit of them continuing to support every Leaf ever produced... Into the future. I personally would like to be driving my Leaf when it is 20 or more years old....

UBUYGAS said:

And I was (I think) their 8th customer. I have paid my $150 install cost now instead of $1500 next year.

You can also save 10% by using my discount code: LEAF380

Sal Cameli
aka UBUYGAS

I can address people's questions about this product, I'm the founder of Fenix, we've had a ton of questions about how our solution works and have updated our FAQ to address them. But that doesn't cover everything, so let me know if there's something else you'd like to know. https://fenix.systems/faq

Click to expand...

I want to add to this and update people who are interested, as some have asked if we're using deposits to fund the business like a Kickstarter or similar. To do what we're doing takes a bit more resources than the average crowdfunded watch or drone, and early deposits simply won't work as a source of funding. What they do serve as is a measure of confidence for our investors in the need that the market has for a solution like ours. Many have also asked why we're not doing a zero-dollar deposit, and in the words of one of our seed investors "Anyone can sign up to something for free, that doesn't make them a customer." So here we are, looking to measure the market with quantifiable customer interest. To demonstrate this further, we've created a new discount code, which if you combine it with a referral code like Sal's above, makes the signup a simple $99 for the next 25 customers. Additionally, we've worked out some of our backend fee issues and have reduced the refund processing fee to $10 from $25 (We hope to get that lower, still working on it.)

As always, we've received great feedback here and in other forums, we want to make our product and service the best we can when we get to market, so any questions and comments are always welcome. If you're ready to put down a deposit and use this discount, take note of Sal's above and use the additional coupon of "Get99" here: https://fenix.systems/product/nissan-leaf-battery-pack-replacement

-John

JohnBysinger said:

I want to add to this and update people who are interested, as some have asked if we're using deposits to fund the business like a Kickstarter or similar. To do what we're doing takes a bit more resources than the average crowdfunded watch or drone, and early deposits simply won't work as a source of funding. What they do serve as is a measure of confidence for our investors in the need that the market has for a solution like ours. Many have also asked why we're not doing a zero-dollar deposit, and in the words of one of our seed investors "Anyone can sign up to something for free, that doesn't make them a customer." So here we are, looking to measure the market with quantifiable customer interest. To demonstrate this further, we've created a new discount code, which if you combine it with a referral code like Sal's above, makes the signup a simple $99 for the next 25 customers. Additionally, we've worked out some of our backend fee issues and have reduced the refund processing fee to $10 from $25 (We hope to get that lower, still working on it.)

As always, we've received great feedback here and in other forums, we want to make our product and service the best we can when we get to market, so any questions and comments are always welcome. If you're ready to put down a deposit and use this discount, take note of Sal's above and use the additional coupon of "Get99" here: https://fenix.systems/product/nissan-leaf-battery-pack-replacement

-John

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Hi John,

I think this is a very interesting service you will be offering, and if I still had my 30kWh Leaf I would probably sign up. Earlier this year I traded it in for a 2018 Leaf, which suits us perfectly except for the potential battery degradation and the lack of thermal management for long trips. Would it be possible to sign up now, but wait to take advantage of your service once you can support 2018 and later Leafs?

Also, it would be a great demonstration and advertising of your service if you could outfit a 30kWh Leaf with one of your packs, and take it on a 500 mile road trip in a single day. If your pack could sustain ~50kW charging for the whole trip that would be very enticing to us Leaf drivers.

JohnBysinger said:

UBUYGAS said:

As always, we've received great feedback here and in other forums, we want to make our product and service the best we can when we get to market, so any questions and comments are always welcome. If you're ready to put down a deposit and use this discount, take note of Sal's above and use the additional coupon of "Get99" here: https://fenix.systems/product/nissan-leaf-battery-pack-replacement

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I tried to put down a deposit but your website doesn't seem to work. The paypal window just closes and never asks me to enter the paypal information. I sent you an email with more details (and what I think is the solution).

Astros said:

JohnBysinger said:

I want to add to this and update people who are interested, as some have asked if we're using deposits to fund the business like a Kickstarter or similar. To do what we're doing takes a bit more resources than the average crowdfunded watch or drone, and early deposits simply won't work as a source of funding. What they do serve as is a measure of confidence for our investors in the need that the market has for a solution like ours. Many have also asked why we're not doing a zero-dollar deposit, and in the words of one of our seed investors "Anyone can sign up to something for free, that doesn't make them a customer." So here we are, looking to measure the market with quantifiable customer interest. To demonstrate this further, we've created a new discount code, which if you combine it with a referral code like Sal's above, makes the signup a simple $99 for the next 25 customers. Additionally, we've worked out some of our backend fee issues and have reduced the refund processing fee to $10 from $25 (We hope to get that lower, still working on it.)

As always, we've received great feedback here and in other forums, we want to make our product and service the best we can when we get to market, so any questions and comments are always welcome. If you're ready to put down a deposit and use this discount, take note of Sal's above and use the additional coupon of "Get99" here: https://fenix.systems/product/nissan-leaf-battery-pack-replacement

-John

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Hi John,

I think this is a very interesting service you will be offering, and if I still had my 30kWh Leaf I would probably sign up. Earlier this year I traded it in for a 2018 Leaf, which suits us perfectly except for the potential battery degradation and the lack of thermal management for long trips. Would it be possible to sign up now, but wait to take advantage of your service once you can support 2018 and later Leafs?

Also, it would be a great demonstration and advertising of your service if you could outfit a 30kWh Leaf with one of your packs, and take it on a 500 mile road trip in a single day. If your pack could sustain ~50kW charging for the whole trip that would be very enticing to us Leaf drivers.

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Thanks for your interest Astros, and I love the suggestion of the 500 mile trip. We, of course, will be doing DCQC validation, but I like the real-world suggestion. We should be able to provide something like this to share long before we get to production.


And to Lothsahn, thank you for working with us, your troubleshooting help in email was great! I've reached out to the Paypal plugin authors to try to get that bug corrected, but our long-term solution is to move to Square as our payment processor. Thanks again!