WetEV
Well-known member
Lothsahn said:
Kids, don't try this at home.
Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)
- Thread starter Lothsahn
- Start date
Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:
Kids, don't try this at home.
We bought a used 2012 Leaf that looked to be in nearly immaculate condition from a Nissan dealership. It had very low mileage, too. However, despite the full bar charge ability and 100+ mile claimed range, we quickly discovered that the range estimate wasn't even close to reasonably accurate. Not too long after getting the car we had to have it towed to the dealership because the mileage tanked very badly and then the car wouldn't run. Nissan sent it to like three different dealerships and it took forever to get it back. But, when we did get it back, the battery supposedly having been fixed due to the vehicle having less than 30,000 miles on it, the range was even more inaccurate. It initially claimed almost as much range as when we had gotten the car but would plummet drastically. Now, not a very long time after this "repair" we have to charge the car at least every 48 hours to make the trip to work and back, a few miles away. The range meter is a big fat lie and the battery repair appears to have only managed to get the car to start up and run. I don't think they did anything besides replace the completely dead cells. The extremely degraded ones must have just been papered-over and the software is designed to pretend that they hold some kind of decent charge.SageBrush said:
So, the claims about 60,000 mile lifespan aren't even close to accurate. And, this is the 2012 which is, according to Consumer Reports' data (at least at the time we researched for purchasing), is the last very reliable year (because it was still made in Japan). The battery technology is apparently very poor-quality. There is no excuse for not making it easy for third parties to provide replacement packs if Nissan can't manage to produce affordable and reliable replacements themselves. I am completely uninterested in reading theorizing about why it's just fine for Nissan to handle the Leaf so deplorably.
I also completely agree with the demand, too, to be able to turn off that terrible startup nag screen, especially since the wifi system is so outdated that the vehicle isn't even using it.
I want to love our 2012 Leaf, especially since it had a less ridiculously aggressive fascia than most recent vehicles, but my spouse is very irritated and I am seeing things his way lately. We were already scammed by VW with a diesel Passat, which we purchased new (endless repairs plus scam repairs and dealership lies... also toxic nanoparticles from the emissions system that have very likely contributed to my chronic bronchitis). It seems that whenever the consumer makes an effort to save money on fuel and help the environment the consumer ends up being stabbed in the back.
Not only should third party packs be able to be made available for reasonable prices and with reliability, the vehicle should have absolutely no reason why it can't be adapted to more recent higher-capacity cells. But, I would be fine with a true 100 mile range, or even a true 70 mile range. I am not happy with a 12 mile range that says 84 miles when you pull out of the garage after a charge. That is not hyperbole. With the heater running it may be even less than that. At the rate the range is degrading we're going to have a car that won't even be able to be driven to work and back (only a few miles away) soon. And, we're still paying on the car loan until 2020!!!
ABSOLUTLELY DEPLORABLE AND DISGUSTING SITUATION.
P.S. The local Nissan dealer has been pestering us continually to trade the vehicle in. You don't want to know how little they're offering — and that's without us having told them about the inexcusable condition of the battery pack they barely repaired at all. Our car is a ticking time bomb and it's time is almost up. We're probably be paying for a year on a car that has to be charged daily to crawl a few miles. I don't remember how many miles are on the car now... maybe 40K. It's not much. Our '99 Saturn LS-1 was a vastly better buy. That thing is still on the road and it has a huge amount of miles on it.
It figures that the shadiest companies like VW are heavily trying to push EVs. Companies adore speeding up planned obsolescence, like Apple with its iPhone battery fiasco. We both had iPhone 5s that prematurely failed because of battery problems. Neither were covered by any kind of replacement discount. Apple told my spouse to buy a new phone when the battery bulged out. FIll up the landfills and max out today's terrible credit cards. He used to have a BoA (for many many many years) card. It was his first and BoA extended the credit limit to 30K. Even though his credit score kept increasing and was the highest it had ever been (820 or something), BoA cancelled the card without warning and with no attempt at justification. The banks want everyone to have higher interest cards with low limits so they can hit people with penalties if they max out.
Remember inkjet printers? Once upon a time they were built to last. Then Epson realized it could make print heads that clog and kill the machine. HP realized the ink could be priced into the stratosphere and people would pay it to avoid the clogged printhead problem. Apple pioneered quickly breaking backward compatibility with OS "updates". Microsoft is now doing the same thing. I have a pile of software that won't work in Windows 10. Hostility toward the consumer is increasing and that is what planned obolescence is.
Don't count on it.SageBrush said:
The bars mean nothing. Ours was full when we bought it and that barely lasted any time at all. We lost a bar. Then another. Then the car wouldn't run at all. Then it was "repaired". Now, it barely has any usable capacity — despite ridiculous claims of total mileage with a full charge. The bars and the mileage claim meter are both smoke and mirrors.
This is illusion. When a car can't even manage to run properly when it had less than 30K miles on it and can't run properly when it has been "repaired" by the dealerships' experts then "lightly used" doesn't apply. These batteries are, from what I can tell, defective. Or, the car design that's using them is defective. Or both.SageBrush said:
People have been mentioning a lack of active cooling. Well, the 2012 model, I've read, added some cooling. It's active in that air moves over the batteries when the car is in motion, correct? It does, indeed, seem sketchy for them to have added that cooling for the 2012 model without changing the design. It appears to be an admission of design failure for the pre-2012 models.
And, given the horrible battery performance in our 2012...
We can thank Consumer Reports for lying to us. It claimed the Leaf cost so little per mile to drive. What a flat out lie. That company should be folded. It's so unreliable that it's basically as scam, too. The top-rated GE fridge we bought lasted just until out of warranty and not even the repairman could get it to work. The same goes for the top-rated GE dryer. Etc. Etc.Valdemar said:
Not really. Do the math on our car. It is going to cost us more to replace the battery in it than buying a different vehicle would cost us. I'll get the actual mileage on the car this morning and the mileage it was at when we bought it and the mileage it was at when it was "repaired", so people can see how well the 60K estimate holds up.Usaverageguy said:
Also, I have to say that I have zero faith that these insanely overpriced replacement batteries from Nissan will provide the same range as an original factory-installed pack, given the utterly unacceptable performance of the warranty repair I received. It is my expectation that people will get a lot more smoke and mirrors for their hard-earned cash.
Nissan removed the charge level protection cap for the 2012 model. Gee, I wonder why... (The company claimed that the protection benefit was negligible.)DaveinOlyWA said:
This "early adopter" excuse is ridiculous. It has nothing to do with intentionally anti-consumer business practices, which is what we're discussing. Our 2012 car wasn't a case of early adopter anything.webb14leafs said:
Refurbished implies the reuse of Nissan's pack design. Using some other kind of cell is not refurbishment it is replacement. I would run away from refurbished Nissan cells unless they were dirt cheap.DaveinOlyWA said:
The EPA excuse strikes me as being complete nonsense. If Nissan is claiming this it's probably relying on ordinary people to not fact-check it. What could the excuse possibly be?tattoogunman said:
The EPA would be happy for people to continue to use batteries rather than send them to a landfill. Lithium battery production has a non-negligible ecological impact.
Some comments here also indicate that some have been programmed by the extreme "speed up planned obsolescence to the nth degree" corporate indoctrination campaign. For a reality check, there are AMC Pacers on Ebay that are still running well. Yes, cars from the 1970s that weren't even luxury models. People need to recalibrate their expectations for car lifespan radically. GM thought its exploding Pintos were fine (literally saved a few bucks by designing the car to be unsafe) but consumers said otherwise when they found out. It's time for consumers to think harder about this battery scam. The disposable electronic gadgets (including the relentless wasteful television size upgrading) people have grown accustomed to are warping people's ideas about what minimal acceptable car lifespan is.
^^ Looooong post with wild speculation and unsubstantiated claims. If I may add my own, I'd guess your battery was reset.
I suggest you find out *exactly* what 'repair' was done back in the day and if the warranty was not honored you will have a case for arbitration.
I suggest you find out *exactly* what 'repair' was done back in the day and if the warranty was not honored you will have a case for arbitration.
Cite the "wild speculation". The only wild speculation I'm seeing is your claim that the dealerships lied to us and didn't actually repair the batteries.SageBrush said:
I know what they claimed they did. They claimed that they repaired the batteries under the pre-30K warranty terms.
Your impressions of reduced range are worthless. If the LEAF capacity bar meter dropped below 9 bars before the 5yr/60k mile warranty lapsed you had a valid claim. I know of one case of module replacement under the warranty reported in this forum but all the other warranty cases have been pack replacement. You should find out specifics.RFOhio said:
A battery reset can take a few months to return to an accurate reading. Greater than 9 bars due to a reset would not be a valid honoring of the warranty. So once again, you should find out specifics.
rogersleaf
Well-known member
RFOhio, Am I understanding your situation correctly.... You purchased a 6-7 yr old used LEAF which is not meeting your range expectations of 100 miles? Then, Nissan is making a poor attempt to honor their now expired 5yr/60k battery warranty?
Not sure where the 100 mile range promise originated. I don’t recall getting that kind of range out of mine when it was new, especially in cold Ohio weather. Mine was lucky to make a 73 mile commute in near freezing temps and was nowhere close after 3 seasons of use.
Not sure where the 100 mile range promise originated. I don’t recall getting that kind of range out of mine when it was new, especially in cold Ohio weather. Mine was lucky to make a 73 mile commute in near freezing temps and was nowhere close after 3 seasons of use.
RFOhio said:
I have not heard of any pre 30k warranty terms. There is an 8 year/100k mile warranty on the battery against manufacturing defects and a 5 year/60k mile warranty on capacity. Therefore, the capacity warranty is expired but your defect warranty remains intact. That said, Nissan is VERY specific about what they consider a defect and people have had trouble getting obvious battery defects fixed under the warranty.
Given the mileage and behavior, I would speculate your car sat for a long period of time at a low state of charge. This would have caused one or more of the cells to go bad, increasing internal resistance and decreasing capacity to a point where they are causing your whole pack to fail.
If your car was in the settlement opt-out, you may be able to make a claim that the battery design was defective and you expect replacement under the 8 year defect warranty, but Nissan will fight you. You will end up in court or arbitration if you want to win that case. You may also not be able to win that claim, because if my speculation is true, the car's state would be a result of neglect, not manufacturing defect.
It also looks like your BMS was reset, making the car claim more capacity than actual. As stated in this thread, it will take a while for the car to "catch up" to the actual capacity. Alternatively, another possibility is the car was actually a 12-bar car until the car sat a low state of charge, which would have damaged the battery. In this case, the BMS may just not have yet learned the new (diminished) battery capacity.
The behavior of the car (initially higher range and then shrinking) indicates that one or more cells have gone bad in the pack, while other cells still have capacity. A single bad cell (either a high internal resistance or low capacity) will cause a loss of range even if the rest of the pack has charge. The BMS (battery management system) in the car will try to balance difference between packs, but if the difference becomes too large, it will no longer be able to do so. You can read about that in this thread here:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=26760
If the dealership replaced some cells, they either replaced those cells with bad cells or they didn't replace all of the failed cells in the car. I would get LeafSpy Pro and an ODBII reader, take the car to the VLBW using the heater (NOT the motor) as described in the above linked thread, and post the battery voltage diagram from LeafSpy Pro. People in this forum should then be able to tell you what's wrong with your battery. If the dealer already swapped some cells, you may be able to point out the remaining defective cells and get them to swap those as well, at which point you would likely have a good working car.
Also, CR did not lie to you. On average, the Leaf is extremely inexpensive to drive. There are always exceptions. If you buy a broken used car with an expensive problem and it's either out of warranty or the warranty repair was not done correctly, then your expenses will be above average. The car may have looked immaculate and shown 12 bars, but in this case, that was not accurate. There is risk in buying a used car. You got unlucky. Similarly, I bought a nice used Honda and had to spend over $7k in repairs the second year I owned it. Many of us can cite individual bad experiences about cars, but that does not mean CR lied. The vast majority of Leafs have accurate battery capacity indicators and BMS accuracy is not an issue for most Leaf owners.
Nubo
Well-known member
rogersleaf said:
100 miles was never officially promised. However the car did show 100 miles range on an unrealistic test cycle, and some marketeers and cheerleaders were happy to let that feed a range fantasy amongst uninformed consumers.
RFOhio said:
If the dealer won't give you a good price on trade in (hint: they usually don't on any car), sell it private. I bet there's someone out there that would fix it up for the right price. Heck, I might even take it as a parts car, if the price was right.
Nubo
Well-known member
SageBrush said:
No doubt. I've gotten 100 also, but perhaps I should have said non-representative instead of unrealistic.
Tonyt
Well-known member
RFOhio said:
I didn't read all the details but just wanted to note a few things.
Did you start a documented claim with your dealer before the 5 year mark of when the car was originally sold/in service? I'm guessing your battery replacement warranty expired in sometime 2017? Because if you did you might be able to get some help from Nissan corporate about getting a new battery, 30k is well under if 60k and if you documented range issues before 2017 and able to show you were somewhere at 4 bars lost or more and didn't get a replacement like you were supposed to?
Sounds like you drive 10 miles a day or less and charge every 2 days getting an effective 20 miles on a battery? Heating can take a LOT of power, and cold will also make the car have much less capacity. Is there any reason you cant charge daily instead of every 48 hours? Even though you should probaly get much more range.
There is a learning curve to driving EV, and older leaf's in cold climates don't make it easy. I remember having to drive pretty optimal to get 80 miles of range in my 2011 after my new battery, I purchased car used.
Hope some tips can help you get to where you need and back.
specialgreen
Well-known member
RFOhio said:
Your description sounds like:
- the battery is bad (even worse than a typical 2012 with high mileage)
- but had "full bar charge ability". If it had 12 bars, that could be because the battery software had been reset, making the car "forget" just how bad the battery was... this is sometimes done by dishonest sellers to hide a bad battery.
- The "fix" done by the dealer was probably to just reset the battery software again
If you returned the car for service within 5 years from the date of its first sale (not the date of manufacture), then the dealer probably failed to properly service it under warranty (which should mean replacing the entire battery pack). If the car was older than 5 years, then the dealer would not have been willing to replace the battery (which would cost them $8k), so they might have reset the battery software (again) just to "kick the can down the road." And knowing that you would be an unhappy customer (who might complain to Nissan and/or the Better Business Bureau), I can believe that they would want very much to trade you up into something else.
Yes, part of the problem is that there are Leafs which die early deaths (even compared to other EVs). But there are also used cars with near-death transmissions and engines sold by dealers. For example, many VW 4-cylinder engines suffer timing belt or engine oil failures just outside of warranty. I think what makes Leafs unique, is that you could take a used Leaf and a used VW to an independent mechanic for inspection, and they _would_ know about the VW timing belt failures (and oil sludge, and dexcool contamination), but would probably _not_ know how to use LeafSpyPro. EV owners depend more on our dealers, so we are also more vulnerable to poor service or fraud.
I recommend that you download LeafSpyPro (you'll need to buy or borrow a Bluetooth ODBII dongle); and post a screen capture of your battery's condition here. If you have a local EV club (try searching on the Net or Facebook), I'm sure there is someone near you who already has a dongle and the software. Also... don't go back to that same dealer.
UBUYGAS
Well-known member
jlv said:
Yes!, But, not really. the 30kWh battery is supposed to be around $99, it might be $90 a month.
But, the CEO claims he wants to get the price lower over time. In 3 years it may be $1 per kWh.
My 6-year-old LEAF is in great shape, the only thing bad is the crap battery.
You can read about the upgrade process at my new website I made for just this reason: www.LEAF380.com
jlv
Well-known member
Good luck with that.
UBUYGAS
Well-known member
jlv said:
Thanks!
Only 6 left at the lowest price point.
UBUYGAS
Well-known member
Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement
Now just 3 left at the lowest price.
https://youtu.be/riD53QTfy3Q
Now just 3 left at the lowest price.
https://youtu.be/riD53QTfy3Q
NorthTexas
Member
- Joined
- May 21, 2016
- Messages
- 7
WOW. That sucks. I have a 2011 and have been wondering about new batteries as mine is done to 35 miles on a good day and heaven help me if I have to drive 55 mph... but $8500???? I like the car and is in good shape other than that but WOW. That pretty much makes the leaf a throw away car! Looked up the KBB and is only worth $1500.
Financially now wondering if a EV is even worth it? Seems like there was the bush to get us into them and then they no longer care and just say screw you.
Financially now wondering if a EV is even worth it? Seems like there was the bush to get us into them and then they no longer care and just say screw you.