new 2019 E+ leaf battery pack no active cooling?

WetEV said:

I'm driving a car that's worth the $0.50 per mile it has cost me to drive if I had to sell it today.

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Let's just say that few people would jump at the offer for a no-compromise 50 mile (for a while, anyway) radius car. I am glad though to hear that you are happy.

SageBrush said:

WetEV said:

I'm driving a car that's worth the $0.50 per mile it has cost me to drive if I had to sell it today.

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Let's just say that few people would jump at the offer for a no-compromise 50 mile (for a while, anyway) radius car. I am glad though to hear that you are happy.

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No such thing as no-compromise anything.

The LEAF v1, with only 35 miles of "No Worries Range", was a niche car. You had to fit the profile for the car to work for you: a commute not too long, not to short, not too cold, not too hot, have a second car and so on. Many of the early buyers didn't fit the profile. So they were unhappy.

The result was fairly predictable.

WetEV said:

The LEAF v1, with only 35 miles of "No Worries Range", was a niche car. You had to fit the profile for the car to work for you: a commute not too long, not to short, not too cold, not too hot, have a second car and so on. Many of the early buyers didn't fit the profile. So they were unhappy.

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You are rewriting history again.
The owners became unhappy when their 35 mile "No worries Range" car dropped to 25 miles

SageBrush said:

WetEV said:

The LEAF v1, with only 35 miles of "No Worries Range", was a niche car. You had to fit the profile for the car to work for you: a commute not too long, not to short, not too cold, not too hot, have a second car and so on. Many of the early buyers didn't fit the profile. So they were unhappy.

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You are rewriting history again.
The owners became unhappy when their 35 mile "No worries Range" car dropped to 25 miles

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Mostly in hot places, at first. Some outside that as well. Yes, Nissan's first production battery was a dud. BTW: You misunderstand "No Worries Range". That includes at least a 30% drop in battery capacity. Not many LEAFs had a 30% loss then a second 30% loss. A few have since then, by missing the warranty or being in a really hot place, but not that many.

There were some in the Seattle area that had 50-60 mile commutes. These became challenging, at minimum, even before the battery had lost much range, as they were beyond the "No Worries Range".

Back on topic, active cooling, or lack of, wasn't the real problem. Nissan would have had almost as large of a problem with an alternative LEAF with active cooling. As did Ford, with the tiny volume FFE. Look at the test results comparing FFE and LEAF in AZ. The problems were chemistry and use, not active cooling.

As chemistry isn't a simple thing, and even knowing people that claim to understand battery chemistry... I'm not convinced that they do. However, active cooling sounds simple, so that's what gets the blame. Yet battery cooling isn't the panacea that many think it is.

Hotter places will still have faster capacity losses. They will also see the most gain from battery cooling, along with the largest energy draw for cooling.

Average places will still have faster capacity losses. They will see both little gain from battery cooling, and little energy draw from cooling.

Cool places may have faster capacity loss with active battery cooling, and will see almost no energy draw from cooling. The faster capacity loss is due to design of pack having less passive cooling. This is likely necessary to minimize energy draw in hot places. Complex subject, probably matters little.

What can an active cooling system do? Mostly limit the peak pack temperature to something like 40 C to 45 C or so. Can't cool much below that without taking a risk of condensation, which is deadly for electronics and batteries.

So, in a cool place, would an active cooling system do anything at all? Not in my experience, as I've never gotten over 38 C battery temperature ever, and that only once, in summer, on a long trip with multiple quick charges.

So in Denver (or San Jose), would an active cooling system do anything at all? Denver is about 5C warmer than Seattle. So if you drive like me, maybe limit temperature a few days per year by a few degrees, with a 40 C threshold. This might improve battery lifetime by a few days over years. Basically, nothing. And nothing at all with a 45 C threshold, as Tesla uses.

How about Phoenix? Average temperature is 15C warmer than Seattle. Battery with just commuting might average 35 C in July, with or without active cooling. More, if you need to park in a sunny parking lot. With long drives, spirited driving, and multiple QCs, you could easily cook a passively cooled battery. Here is the case for active cooling, not Denver and really really not Seattle. You might do OK with a lizard battery in Phoenix, if you just commute, have covered parking during the day most of the time, and a cooler place to park and charge at night.

If I was to rewrite history, I'd have Nissan wait a few years to bring out the LEAF with reasonable battery chemistry, and market it in Phoenix with warnings about keeping the car from getting too hot.

EatsShootsandLeafs said:

As always, don't buy a Nissan Leaf. Never, ever. Lease it, and let Nissan pick up the crumbs of its nonexistent residual. The exception to this rule is buying if it's used. When you're paying $12k for a barely used Nissan Leaf the lack of TMS doesn't become such a big deal.

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Right now leasing doesn't sound so great compared to buying. Here's a lease deal from Nissan:
Nissan Leaf SL, $345 monthly, 36mo/10K, $3,979 initial payment (includes first month payment)
INCLUDES $8450 manufacturers rebate
MSRP $37,095 incl destination
Cap Cost $23,991 incl $595 acquisition fee
Purchase for $15,209 at lease end

$345 * 36 + $3979 = $16,399 to lease for 3 years.

I bought my 19 Leaf SL with Tech for $31,450 - $7,500 tax credit = $23,950. (Also get $2,500 from state, but leasing also gets that). $23,950 - $16,399 = $7,551 difference between buying and leasing. Nissan says the Leaf will be worth $15,209 after 3 years. Buying will only cost $8,741 over 3 years compared to $16,399.

Triggerhappy007 said:

EatsShootsandLeafs said:

As always, don't buy a Nissan Leaf. Never, ever. Lease it, and let Nissan pick up the crumbs of its nonexistent residual. The exception to this rule is buying if it's used. When you're paying $12k for a barely used Nissan Leaf the lack of TMS doesn't become such a big deal.

Click to expand...

Right now leasing doesn't sound so great compared to buying. Here's a lease deal from Nissan:
Nissan Leaf SL, $345 monthly, 36mo/10K, $3,979 initial payment (includes first month payment)
INCLUDES $8450 manufacturers rebate
MSRP $37,095 incl destination
Cap Cost $23,991 incl $595 acquisition fee
Purchase for $15,209 at lease end

$345 * 36 + $3979 = $16,399 to lease for 3 years.

I bought my 19 Leaf SL with Tech for $31,450 - $7,500 tax credit = $23,950. (Also get $2,500 from state, but leasing also gets that). $23,950 - $16,399 = $7,551 difference between buying and leasing. Nissan says the Leaf will be worth $15,209 after 3 years. Buying will only cost $8,741 over 3 years compared to $16,399.

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One can be picky over some of your numbers but they are certainly ballpark.

The best cost per mile then would be 55 cents a mile -- though very few would return the car with exactly 30k miles on the odometer. For a car that is a dog (if at all possible) for trips.

Triggerhappy007 said:

EatsShootsandLeafs said:

As always, don't buy a Nissan Leaf. Never, ever. Lease it, and let Nissan pick up the crumbs of its nonexistent residual. The exception to this rule is buying if it's used. When you're paying $12k for a barely used Nissan Leaf the lack of TMS doesn't become such a big deal.

Click to expand...

Right now leasing doesn't sound so great compared to buying. Here's a lease deal from Nissan:
Nissan Leaf SL, $345 monthly, 36mo/10K, $3,979 initial payment (includes first month payment)
INCLUDES $8450 manufacturers rebate
MSRP $37,095 incl destination
Cap Cost $23,991 incl $595 acquisition fee
Purchase for $15,209 at lease end

$345 * 36 + $3979 = $16,399 to lease for 3 years.

I bought my 19 Leaf SL with Tech for $31,450 - $7,500 tax credit = $23,950. (Also get $2,500 from state, but leasing also gets that). $23,950 - $16,399 = $7,551 difference between buying and leasing. Nissan says the Leaf will be worth $15,209 after 3 years. Buying will only cost $8,741 over 3 years compared to $16,399.

Click to expand...

So basically next to none of the fed tax rebate being passed on to lessees?

DaveinOlyWA said:

Triggerhappy007 said:

EatsShootsandLeafs said:

As always, don't buy a Nissan Leaf. Never, ever. Lease it, and let Nissan pick up the crumbs of its nonexistent residual. The exception to this rule is buying if it's used. When you're paying $12k for a barely used Nissan Leaf the lack of TMS doesn't become such a big deal.

Click to expand...

Right now leasing doesn't sound so great compared to buying. Here's a lease deal from Nissan:
Nissan Leaf SL, $345 monthly, 36mo/10K, $3,979 initial payment (includes first month payment)
INCLUDES $8450 manufacturers rebate
MSRP $37,095 incl destination
Cap Cost $23,991 incl $595 acquisition fee
Purchase for $15,209 at lease end

$345 * 36 + $3979 = $16,399 to lease for 3 years.

I bought my 19 Leaf SL with Tech for $31,450 - $7,500 tax credit = $23,950. (Also get $2,500 from state, but leasing also gets that). $23,950 - $16,399 = $7,551 difference between buying and leasing. Nissan says the Leaf will be worth $15,209 after 3 years. Buying will only cost $8,741 over 3 years compared to $16,399.

Click to expand...

So basically next to none of the fed tax rebate being passed on to lessees?

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Actually, $8,450 is passed to the leasee, but you're really paying sticker price plus high interest when you lease.

Triggerhappy007 said:

DaveinOlyWA said:

Triggerhappy007 said:

Right now leasing doesn't sound so great compared to buying. Here's a lease deal from Nissan:
Nissan Leaf SL, $345 monthly, 36mo/10K, $3,979 initial payment (includes first month payment)
INCLUDES $8450 manufacturers rebate
MSRP $37,095 incl destination
Cap Cost $23,991 incl $595 acquisition fee
Purchase for $15,209 at lease end

$345 * 36 + $3979 = $16,399 to lease for 3 years.

I bought my 19 Leaf SL with Tech for $31,450 - $7,500 tax credit = $23,950. (Also get $2,500 from state, but leasing also gets that). $23,950 - $16,399 = $7,551 difference between buying and leasing. Nissan says the Leaf will be worth $15,209 after 3 years. Buying will only cost $8,741 over 3 years compared to $16,399.

Click to expand...

So basically next to none of the fed tax rebate being passed on to lessees?

Click to expand...

Actually, $8,450 is passed to the leasee, but you're really paying sticker price plus high interest when you lease.

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OK, so lease incentive level has dropped to as little as $950? while buying incentives are near $7000. This is quite the difference when lease incentives totaled a few thousand more (which in reality was $4000-$6000 less because buyers still get the additional $7500 if qualified)

What was MF? I know mine jumped up from nearly nothing (.07%) on my 2016 to nearly 2% effective interest on my 2018.

Guess its not surprising that Nissan is tired of handling lease returns but with degradation being so high on a bunch of them, what were they expecting?

My LEAF residual is a good deal at $9500 but not if degradation will "fall into cracks" of being just short of a claim. As it stands now, I am not projected to be borderline qualifier but still have a long way to go and things will change.

Triggerhappy007 said:

EatsShootsandLeafs said:

I bought my 19 Leaf SL with Tech for $31,450 - $7,500 tax credit = $23,950. (Also get $2,500 from state, but leasing also gets that). $23,950 - $16,399 = $7,551 difference between buying and leasing. Nissan says the Leaf will be worth $15,209 after 3 years. Buying will only cost $8,741 over 3 years compared to $16,399.

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Okay, I won't criticize that. You got a lot of car for $24k.

Triggerhappy007 said:

I bought my 19 Leaf SL with Tech for $31,450 - $7,500 tax credit = $23,950. (Also get $2,500 from state, but leasing also gets that).

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How long ago was this? Would you be willing to mention the dealer? I'm guessing you're in CA?

I haven't seen any significant discounting (not more than $2K off MSRP) nor purchase incentives on Leafs via https://www.choosenissan.com/ (I put in the 95136 zip code, not where I live but close enough). It's possible I'm looking in the wrong places.

cwerdna said:

Triggerhappy007 said:

I bought my 19 Leaf SL with Tech for $31,450 - $7,500 tax credit = $23,950. (Also get $2,500 from state, but leasing also gets that).

Click to expand...

How long ago was this? Would you be willing to mention the dealer? I'm guessing you're in CA?

I haven't seen any significant discounting (not more than $2K off MSRP) nor purchase incentives on Leafs via https://www.choosenissan.com/ (I put in the 95136 zip code, not where I live but close enough). It's possible I'm looking in the wrong places.

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Bought Jan 1st. I'm in TX, there were 3 dealers discounting around $4k off plus I had a $3k rebate from electric company. The market is probably slower here so they're just trying to get rid of them.

^^^
Thanks! I see.

Here, we had https://www.pge.com/en/about/newsroom/newsdetails/index.page?title=20180424_pge_customers_eligible_to_save_3000_on_a_new_nissan_leaf_electric_vehicle but it expired 1/2/19 and it wasn't clear if it was renewed.

Yeah, I'd imagine that dealers in CA would have more folks coming in to buy or lease if their white or green HOV stickers expired and they can no longer renew (true if they got them before 2017).

So not only does there continue to be no active cooling, but It looks like the new battery pack is still using cells from AESC - the same company that has always supplied cells for the Leaf.

Ugh.

If you like the car, lease it. Don't purchase. You'll regret purchasing one of these.

https://www.electrive.com/2019/01/10/nissan-continues-to-use-aesc-cells-with-62-kwh-leaf/
https://insideevs.com/nissan-denies-lg-chem-leaf-e-battery-cells/

garsh said:

So not only does there continue to be no active cooling, but It looks like the new battery pack is still using cells from AESC - the same company that has always supplied cells for the Leaf.

Ugh.

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Yep.

And in case anybody is wondering, Nissan has been explicit in stating that no LG battery tech has found its way into AESC (or whatever they are calling it nowadays.) I gather than Nissan is now a minority partner of 25% in the battery factory. I would like to know if the factory has customers other than Nissan.

garsh said:

If you like the car, lease it. Don't purchase. You'll regret purchasing one of these.

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I haven't regretting purchasing my Leaf. So have a lot of other people, and not just in the PNW.

Why don't you go sell Tesla someplace that cares?

WetEV said:

garsh said:

If you like the car, lease it. Don't purchase. You'll regret purchasing one of these.

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I haven't regretting purchasing my Leaf. So have a lot of other people, and not just in the PNW.

Why don't you go sell Tesla someplace that cares?

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You have this a bit backwards. Leasing a Leaf is sound advice, except for maybe in the Pacific Northwest. Thus you have an exceptional circumstance, not a typical one. It would be interesting to ask people who are happy to have bought a Leaf to post, along with their locations. I suspect you wouldn't see a lot not from cool climates, and fewer still with pre-4/2013 cars.

LeftieBiker said:

You have this a bit backwards. Leasing a Leaf is sound advice, except for maybe in the Pacific Northwest. Thus you have an exceptional circumstance, not a typical one. It would be interesting to ask people who are happy to have bought a Leaf to post, along with their locations. I suspect you wouldn't see a lot not from cool climates, and fewer still with pre-4/2013 cars.

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I'm happy I bought my leaf and I'm in southeast VA. Based on the current blue book value it has cost me $160 a month for the last 3.5 years. I just lost my first bar at 43k miles.

golfcart said:

LeftieBiker said:

You have this a bit backwards. Leasing a Leaf is sound advice, except for maybe in the Pacific Northwest. Thus you have an exceptional circumstance, not a typical one. It would be interesting to ask people who are happy to have bought a Leaf to post, along with their locations. I suspect you wouldn't see a lot not from cool climates, and fewer still with pre-4/2013 cars.

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I'm happy I bought my leaf and I'm in southeast VA. Based on the current blue book value it has cost me $160 a month for the last 3.5 years. I just lost my first bar at 43k miles.

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I should have added that I expect most of the happy owners in more typical climates to have a 2015 Leaf. ;-)

LeftieBiker said:

I should have added that I expect most of the happy owners in more typical climates to have a 2015 Leaf. ;-)

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And you know beyond any doubt that will be true for the buyer of a 2019 LEAF.

Err... How do you know this?