new 2019 E+ leaf battery pack no active cooling?

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LeftieBiker said:
The problem is that many people seem to get the 2018 Leaf because it finally has enough range for their needs. Not 1/3 more range than they will ever need, to allow for degradation, but 20 or 30 miles more.

Then they need the talk about "No Worries Range", and explain why that the 2018 doesn't have it for them. I recently did that with a potential Bolt buyer. A Bolt does NOT have 150 miles of NWR. 100 miles, maybe a few more, depend on climate.

LeftieBiker said:
And the resale value will be, once again, poor.

Maybe, maybe not. Know the future price of gasoline? What would the resale of an electric car with reasonable range be if the price of gasoline was (say) $10 per gallon? If you know the future of gasoline prices then don't bother us with your future LEAF price predictions, go get rich on futures market. Or more likely, get broke as you really don't know the future, no one does.

LeftieBiker said:
WetEV keeps saying that that's fine - the car isn't worthless,

Got back and read what I wrote.
Assume is worthless at 8 years/100k miles
and then work out cost per mile to end of warranty based on that.

Buying doesn't prevent the dealership from misleading, misguiding and being general sleezeballs. Leasing? Same story, only more so.


LeftieBiker said:
Rogersleaf slipped in before me. Yes, exactly. A lease may cost more in payments, but it's a bargain if you aren't stuck with a car you can't use and can't sell except at a huge loss.

Which isn't what Rogersleaf said. Rogersleaf said
Was my LEAF a bad car or had a badly degraded battery?... absolutely not
Rogersleaf returned the car as the lease was too cheap: the residual was too high and the downpayment and payments too small. Don't expect Nissan to always make that mistake.
 
What this comes down to is me telling people to play it safe, and you telling them to "Don't worry - be happy!" When buying a $35k car I'll just hope that most people prefer being smart to being (momentarily) happy.

It probably isn't impossible for you and I to agree on a short document advising people on acquiring a Leaf. I can accept that you are going to downplay the risks. You'd have to accept that I'd accentuate them. This crap is getting old. Maybe I'll write something up and post it in another topic.
 
We bought a 2015 Leaf SL new rather than leasing. Paid $24,500 for it after Nissan $5000 Finance rebate cash and dealer discount. Then took the $7,500 tax credit so it came out to $17,000 plus tax, tag and title.

Bought a 2018 Leaf SV to replace it. They gave us $12,500 on the trade. So our depreciation was $17k-$12.5k= $4,500. We owned it for 30 months so it cost us $150/mo. That was better than leasing an SL.

The 2018 SV is a big jump in comfort, range and technology. Love the adaptive cruise, and e-pedal.

We use it as our primary local car with a 60 mile radius from home. I’ve yet to get close to having any range anxiety. We do have a 120 mile trip to a cabin we own but I’m not up to trying to stretch it to that range on the Hwy with nowhere to charge in between across Florida West coast to east area.

I’m doing my taxes again now and love the $7,500 tax credit.
 
LeftieBiker said:
What this comes down to is me telling people to play it safe, and you telling them to "Don't worry - be happy!" When buying a $35k car I'll just hope that most people prefer being smart to being (momentarily) happy.

I suggest that people look at all sides, not just the negative. Overdoing the negative isn't cost free.
 
WetEV said:
LeftieBiker said:
What this comes down to is me telling people to play it safe, and you telling them to "Don't worry - be happy!" When buying a $35k car I'll just hope that most people prefer being smart to being (momentarily) happy.

I suggest that people look at all sides, not just the negative. Overdoing the negative isn't cost free.

Then it should be possible to compromise on what we both advise.
 
WetEV said:
LeftieBiker said:
Rogersleaf slipped in before me. Yes, exactly. A lease may cost more in payments, but it's a bargain if you aren't stuck with a car you can't use and can't sell except at a huge loss.

Which isn't what Rogersleaf said. Rogersleaf said
Was my LEAF a bad car or had a badly degraded battery?... absolutely not
Rogersleaf returned the car as the lease was too cheap: the residual was too high and the downpayment and payments too small. Don't expect Nissan to always make that mistake.
LeftieBiker captured my sentiments accurately.

As for the lease arrangements on my '14 Leaf SV, it was appropriately configured to a reasonable expected wholesale disposal value along with paying a premium for 15,000 miles/year with base warranty extension to cover the entire 45,000 miles. Given this is Ohio, which does not subsidize EV's and has sales tax rules that basically taxes the tax credits, expect Nissan to have a difficult time with this product. In 2014, I could have obtained a comparable lease on any comparable value (net-value after tax credits) ICE vehicle for similar terms. In the end, the buyout was closer to a high-retail value as opposed to a wholesale value. In other words, the secondary market puts this car well behind comparable alternatives at the 3-year mark (several thousand dollars behind, not enough to offset the fuel & maintenance saving). I often tell others that the worst attribute of the Leaf is resale value.

Somewhere else in this thread, LeftieBiker also got another point correct. Something to the effect... that it won't be worthless on the market, it will become worthless to the current owner because the battery degraded enough that they can't use it for their needs... I'm positive someone out there got a very strong (@ 87% SOH) 45,000 mile used Leaf that no longer met my needs without an unrealistic battery replacement on the near horizon. I might have bought out the lease if Nissan offered the $5,000 discount that was common at the time. However, that discount would have to be closer to $10,000 given my range needs, relative to the declining battery capacity.

As for not expecting Nissan to repeat that mistake... unless Nissan can offer a comparable package the next time, they won't get my business. There are simply too many good (non-EV) alternatives available with much more reliable residual values. The residual position and likely swap was so bad with my '14 Leaf in 2017 that the replacement was a '17 Honda Ridgeline.
 
When I turned in my '13 SV (also with 87% SOH, and only about 19k miles) I had passed on a $6k buyout price. Not a $6k discount - that was more like $9k. I had just missed the chance to buy it for $5k, and I was unhappy about that, but now I'm glad. The car, even though I loved it, wouldn't have met my needs without a new battery, and only marginally then, with no QC. Many, many people leased or bought the 24kwh cars thinking they had enough range, only to either find that the salesperson was...mistaken... about the range, or that with even moderate degradation it just wasn't a real 'drive it everyplace' car. So when the 40kwh Leaf came out there was a rush of people who thought it was great that the range had doubled. Unfortunately many of them didn't understand about Nissan packs degrading...
 
Flyct said:
Bought a 2018 Leaf SV to replace it. They gave us $12,500 on the trade. So our depreciation was $17k-$12.5k= $4,500. We owned it for 30 months so it cost us $150/mo. That was better than leasing an SL.
Your analysis is incomplete until you figure out any difference in what you paid for the new car compared to not having a trade-in.

These package deals are hard to tease apart. Dealers tend to love them.
 
LeftieBiker said:
When I turned in my '13 SV (also with 87% SOH, and only about 19k miles) I had passed on a $6k buyout price. Not a $6k discount - that was more like $9k. I had just missed the chance to buy it for $5k
Yep. That $5k - 6k offer was ~ the going auction price.

The depreciation on these cars is truly wonderful ... or misery, depending on which side of the transaction you stand.
It is also why the LEAF is a compliance car in the US. A few sorry sods aside, Nissan is shouldering the bill.
 
rogersleaf said:
it will become worthless to the current owner because the battery degraded enough that they can't use it for their needs...
Additionally, another change that doesn't get mentioned as often (because it's not as critical as battery capacity) is the almost complete loss of regen that occurs as the battery degrades. For whatever reason, Nissan has programmed the car to prevent regen when the battery is this degraded. Regen was one of the unexpected joys of EV ownership when I first got the Leaf. One-pedal driving is fun when you get used to it. Plus you have the prospect of never needing to replace brake pads for the life of the car.

In my case, I had to replace my pads at 95k miles due to the loss of regen. My Leaf now has less coasting slow-down ability than any automatic transmission vehicle I've ever owned. So even if the car with half the range is still able to go everywhere you need it to, you'll also have to deal with losing the ability to regen.
 
LeftieBiker said:
WetEV said:
LeftieBiker said:
What this comes down to is me telling people to play it safe, and you telling them to "Don't worry - be happy!" When buying a $35k car I'll just hope that most people prefer being smart to being (momentarily) happy.

I suggest that people look at all sides, not just the negative. Overdoing the negative isn't cost free.

Then it should be possible to compromise on what we both advise.

I think y'all need to form a committee and write a FAQ or sticky on this topic. I'm sure both sides of the aisle can come together and compromise, set a good example for our younger leafers and show that we're reasonable forum posters. Suggested bullet points:

  • Battery Warranty (what it covers, what it doesn't)
  • Battery replacement costs (they haven't gotten cheaper like many hoped)
  • Real world battery degradation (what is typical, which climates do better than others)
  • Expectations for 40kWh and 62kWh packs (will be mostly speculative but worth discussing)
  • Winter range loss (how many miles will the cold cost you)
  • Maintenance costs (the leaf appears to be extremely reliable aside from the battery degradation issue)
  • Charging infrastructure (how will you charge? Level 2 at home requirements and costs, public charging options)
  • Overall assessment (somewhat subjective, try not to get too wordy, be positive about what situation the leaf is a good fit for)
  • EV competition (you can even talk about other cars that don't exist yet for prices that haven't happened yet and how they are better values than the leaf)

Then if the person reads all that and still wants a leaf we can link them to:

  • MSRP vs actual sales prices (how much can people actually get these cars for vs asking price)
  • Depreciation/resale (blue book and auction price after X amount of years)
  • Lease vs Purchase (what is the sales price inflection point where leasing and buying are comparable, risks of each path)
  • New vs Used (what are your needs and how can they be met most cheaply)


I'm sure I missed a few but you get the gist.

Now you may say I'm being a jerk by expecting y'all to do this work with no real monetary benefit. And that is true. But given the countless hours spent writing posts on this topic, stewing over the replies, and replying to said replies... it may be easier and less frustrating in the long run to just hash it out over a few e-beers and make it a sticky. I'd even throw in my 2cents on a few of the topics if anyone cared for my assessment in hopes of making the internet a little more useful and a little less toxic for everyone. :D
 
golfcart said:
[*]Real world battery degradation (what is typical, which climates do better than others)
I don't think there's an easy nor solid answer. It depends on the climate, chemistry of battery (there have been several variants already), age of battery and charging habits. Nissan's not been forthcoming w/info on this at all. And then there's at least one shill here...
golfcart said:
[*]Expectations for 40kWh and 62kWh packs (will be mostly speculative but worth discussing)
Too early to tell on the 40 kWh cars. No fricking way we even know the 62 kWh cars.
golfcart said:
[*]Winter range loss (how many miles will the cold cost you)
Depends on how cold and whether there's rain or snow.
golfcart said:
[*]Charging infrastructure (how will you charge? Level 2 at home requirements and costs, public charging options)
Public charging costs varies wildly from free to crazy like $1 per kWh (https://www.plugshare.com/location/61304). I think I was able to find the hotel w/really crazy fees: https://www.plugshare.com/location/8492.
WARNING: READ FEES CAREFULLY!!
Chargepoint: $2 session fee + $2/kwh +$6.60/hr parking fee
Hotel: an additional $26/hour (min) parking fee to hotel
You can find basically those rates at https://na.chargepoint.com/charge_point if you look up 1160 North Vermont Avenue, Los Angeles, CA, USA.

Even installing an L2 station at home can vary a lot and can be as high as $6K.
golfcart said:
[*]MSRP vs actual sales prices (how much can people actually get these cars for vs asking price)
Changes all the time and is very region specific.
golfcart said:
[*]Lease vs Purchase (what is the sales price inflection point where leasing and buying are comparable, risks of each path)
Somewhat hard due to lease deals changing all the time and Nissan could change how much tax credit they pass along.
 
What is needed is a topic called "Buying vs Leasing A New Nissan Leaf". It would describe the advantages of each option (essentially lower total price and usually higher incentives for buying, vs no long term commitment to keep the car for leasing, plus the on-again off-again passing on of Federal tax credit cash to lessees who can't qualify if they buy) and the disadvantages (owning a car with poor resale value vs paying more and being responsible for excess mileage and damage if the car is turned in). It isn't rocket science, but the only way to keep it simple and fight-free is to be dispassionate, and to include ALL of the advantages and disadvantages for each option. The real sticking point will be what to tell people about buying vs leasing based on their climate...
 
LeftieBiker said:
What is needed is a topic called "Buying vs Leasing A New Nissan Leaf". It would describe the advantages of each option (essentially lower total price and usually higher incentives for buying, vs no long term commitment to keep the car for leasing, plus the on-again off-again passing on of Federal tax credit cash to lessees who can't qualify if they buy) and the disadvantages (owning a car with poor resale value vs paying more and being responsible for excess mileage and damage if the car is turned in). It isn't rocket science, but the only way to keep it simple and fight-free is to be dispassionate, and to include ALL of the advantages and disadvantages for each option. The real sticking point will be what to tell people about buying vs leasing based on their climate...

When writing a scientific paper we separate those into a results and discussion section.

Results should be simple, clear, dispassionate, data driven, and concise.

Discussion can get into a little more of the fluff.

You could even add a conclusion that gives some basic recommendations if you want. :)
 
Heh. You have been reading this topic, right? The problems are that discussions get heated, and results are questioned and disputed. I'll write what I proposed, and I'm sure there will be plenty of discussion. Remember, though, that this isn't a research paper: nothing has been tested in a lab, and the results are all empirical but anecdotal. Unlike a scientific paper (or maybe not, I suppose) what gets written will be a compromise analysis, not a list of test results.

I had really, really hoped that I was done with writing FAQ type documents for this site...
 
LeftieBiker said:
Heh. You have been reading this topic, right? The problems are that discussions get heated, and results are questioned and disputed. I'll write what I proposed, and I'm sure there will be plenty of discussion. Remember, though, that this isn't a research paper: nothing has been tested in a lab, and the results are all empirical but anecdotal. Unlike a scientific paper (or maybe not, I suppose) what gets written will be a compromise analysis, not a list of test results.

I had really, really hoped that I was done with writing FAQ type documents for this site...

Yes, I have been reading this topic. I have read the same arguments many times before hence my suggestion for an FAQ or sticky. I don't think general results are greatly disputed, more the interpretation of those results.

If you don't want to write it I understand... it is always a pain in the ass to write a consensus document. I am just thinking it's less work and more useful in the long run. LOL. If I was a prospective/new leaf owner I'd hate to have to sift through all these pissing match threads to get some useful info.
 
The obstacle to writing a FAQ is that my conclusions are constantly disputed - mostly by one person. You don't seem to understand the consequences of that. I'm done talking about it for now.
 
garsh said:
rogersleaf said:
it will become worthless to the current owner because the battery degraded enough that they can't use it for their needs...
Additionally, another change that doesn't get mentioned as often (because it's not as critical as battery capacity) is the almost complete loss of regen that occurs as the battery degrades. For whatever reason, Nissan has programmed the car to prevent regen when the battery is this degraded.
Wow, I did not think that would happen. That would have been a huge issue with me. According to the telemetric data, 1/4 of the propulsion power I was using was recycled from regeneration. In my duty cycle, I was easily 2/3 expressway so my regen was likely low compared to many. Loosing both capacity and regen capability is rubbing salt into the wound.
 
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