cwerdna
Posts: 9590
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:13 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:Nissan understands the importance. It's just that they don't care, as long as their bottom line is better with poorly cooled batteries than with thermally managed ones.
Yep. This is most likely the reason.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
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Location: NM

Re: How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:57 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:Nissan understands the importance. It's just that they don't care, as long as their bottom line is better with poorly cooled batteries than with thermally managed ones.

The reason that not much distinction is made between un-cooled packs and A/C cooled packs is that, so far, the A/C cooling is only used to cool the packs while the car is fast charging. That won't help a car sitting in a parking lot in 110F temps, or driving in 95F temps on a commute.
... or cool down later.

OP should understand that the Nissan 'solution' may improve rapid-gate but it is not a solution for battery degradation.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

jlsoaz
Posts: 700
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:57 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 24218
Location: Southern Arizona, USA

Re: How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:35 am

LeftieBiker wrote:Nissan understands the importance. It's just that they don't care, as long as their bottom line is better with poorly cooled batteries than with thermally managed ones.

The reason that not much distinction is made between un-cooled packs and A/C cooled packs is that, so far, the A/C cooling is only used to cool the packs while the car is fast charging. That won't help a car sitting in a parking lot in 110F temps, or driving in 95F temps on a commute.
I think their short-term bottom line is better. Long-term, Nissan's prospects for profits were (arguably) harmed by selling customers a product that would have a shorter life (moreso in some cases than in others), hold its value less well and which ultimately harmed relationships with some customers. To be fair, air cooling did arguably help to keep things simple, and not just keep costs down, and to be fair, perhaps this helped with safety and maintenance, I don't know.

BTW, fwiw, I have a video somewhere of me pestering a sales person driving a Leaf , while I rode in a passenger seat, with some questions including (if I recall.... it's been some time since I went back to watch it) about battery longevity and the battery warranty. This was about six months before the Leaf went on sale in the US.
Former lessee 2012 SL
http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/ba ... hp?vid=229
2017-October: bght 2013 Volt
will buy 150+ mile BEV when they become less expensive on used market
opinions expressed are my own

SageBrush
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Re: How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:09 am

Here is is the bottom line: NIssan will screw its customers if at all possible.
The forced consent decree is all the proof any thinking person should need. Want more unnecessary proof ? Shudder at the stories of Nissan refusing battery warranty claims the minute the warranty period is over, including when Nissan pushed the customer just over the deadline. Every other auto company has an informal pro-rating they call 'good-will.' Nissan ? :lol:

Does the past matter, now that a warranty is provided ? Yes, because a warranty is only as good as the intentions of the company that gives it. It is not by accident that Nissan ties the warranty to 'capacity bars' that they control. LEAF owners are so used to poor outcomes that they hardly give notice to the facts that recent cases of '9th capacity bar lost' is occurring around 63% battery capacity, about a 10% drop from the 70% promised by the consent decree.

Some will say, and I agreee, that the current LEAF can be a reasonable buy if the car is priced low and it lives in a cool or cold climate. Make no mistake though: Nissan SUCKS, dealerships are poorly trained in EV service (and getting worse) and expensive, parts are expensive, and CHAdeMO in the US is in zombie mode.

Caveat Emptor
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

golfcart
Posts: 408
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:08 am
Delivery Date: 21 Nov 2015
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Re: How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:20 am

SageBrush wrote:
Does the past matter, now that a warranty is provided ? Yes, because a warranty is only as good as the intentions of the company that gives it. It is not by accident that Nissan ties the warranty to 'capacity bars' that they control. LEAF owners are so used to poor outcomes that they hardly give notice to the facts that recent cases of '9th capacity bar lost' is occurring around 63% battery capacity, about a 10% drop from the 70% promised by the consent decree.
These are great points. I wanted to add, since you didn't mention it specifically, that a capacity warranty replacement does not guarantee you a "new battery". This following is taken directly from the 2018 Leaf Warranty Booklet:
Any repair or replacement made under this Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity Coverage may not return your lithium-ion battery to an “as new” condition with all 12 battery capacity segments, but it will provide the vehicle with a capacity level of nine segments or more on the battery capacity level gauge.
So it is entirely possible that you may just get some sort of reconditioned unit that just puts you back to 9 bars. See below for more details.

Leaf Warranty Booklet

I agree it can be a good purchase at the right price for the right market. The car initially costs a good deal less than its competitors but has relatively poor resale and higher than average degradation so you need to consider all those things when buying one. Given everything we have seen up until now, I would be very hesitant to buy any Leaf in a hot climate like Arizona.
2018 SV

SageBrush
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Re: How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:17 am

golfcart wrote: I wanted to add, since you didn't mention it specifically, that a capacity warranty replacement does not guarantee you a "new battery". This following is taken directly from the 2018 Leaf Warranty Booklet:
Yes, thanks.
Given everything we have seen up until now, I would be very hesitant to buy any Leaf in a hot climate like Arizona.
I go further and say that the climate better be cool or colder.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

golfcart
Posts: 408
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Delivery Date: 21 Nov 2015
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Re: How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:37 am

SageBrush wrote:
I go further and say that the climate better be cool or colder.
I was addressing the OP specifically since their location says Southern Arizona... but that is a fair point in general.

I'm in SE Virginia, which sees about 35 days a year above 90 degrees (high temperature) and I am seeing about 4%/yr capacity loss on my 2015 S. That said, I do charge to 100% 5 days a week and QC fairly regularly.
2018 SV

WetEV
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Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:47 am

SageBrush wrote:
Given everything we have seen up until now, I would be very hesitant to buy any Leaf in a hot climate like Arizona.
I go further and say that the climate better be cool or colder.
Based on exactly what, Sage?

golfcart wrote:about 4%/yr capacity loss on my 2015 S
So with a 7.5 year expected life, you will only get to 1.5 times the warranty period before a 70% capacity. Shocking... not.

If the 2018 with an 8 year warranty was just as good, you would only get a 12 year life before a 70% capacity. Do explain why that is unacceptable, especially as the 2018 would still have far more capacity than the 2015 did when new.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

golfcart
Posts: 408
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:08 am
Delivery Date: 21 Nov 2015
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Re: How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:59 am

WetEV wrote:
So with a 7.5 year expected life, you will only get to 1.5 times the warranty period before a 70% capacity. Shocking... not.

If the 2018 with an 8 year warranty was just as good, you would only get a 12 year life before a 70% capacity. Do explain why that is unacceptable, especially as the 2018 would still have far more capacity than the 2015 did when new.
Perhaps you should take a step back and consider my post before launching into an attack. I at no point said (or implied) that my current rate of degradation was unacceptable, I just stated what it was and offered it as a datapoint in what would be considered a moderate climate in response to SageBrush's assertion that "the climate better be cool or colder". I am very much considering purchasing a 2018 Leaf or possibly an eplus because I have had such a good experience with my 2015 Leaf. 4%/yr degradation is more than a typical Bolt or Tesla owner sees, but given the MUCH lower purchase price of the Leaf I think it still is a better purchase for my needs and given that I wouldn't need to charge a 40kWh pack every day to 100% I might actually see better battery life.

The only judgement I did make was that I would be very hesitant to buy any Leaf in a hot climate like Arizona... which strikes me as pretty non-controversial given the history of Leaf batteries in Arizona and the lack of long term data on the Gen2 40kWh pack or any data on the ePlus pack.
2018 SV

WetEV
Posts: 2994
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Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:19 am

golfcart wrote:
SageBush wrote:I go further and say that the climate better be cool or colder.
I was addressing the OP specifically since their location says Southern Arizona... but that is a fair point in general.
golfcart wrote:
WetEV wrote:So with a 7.5 year expected life, you will only get to 1.5 times the warranty period before a 70% capacity. Shocking... not.

If the 2018 with an 8 year warranty was just as good, you would only get a 12 year life before a 70% capacity. Do explain why that is unacceptable, especially as the 2018 would still have far more capacity than the 2015 did when new.
Perhaps you should take a step back and consider my post before launching into an attack. I at no point said (or implied) that my current rate of degradation was unacceptable, I just stated what it was and offered it as a datapoint in what would be considered a moderate climate in response to SageBrush's assertion that "the climate better be cool or colder". I am very much considering purchasing a 2018 Leaf or possibly an eplus because I have had such a good experience with my 2015 Leaf. 4%/yr degradation is more than a typical Bolt or Tesla owner sees, but given the MUCH lower purchase price of the Leaf I think it still is a better purchase for my needs and given that I wouldn't need to charge a 40kWh pack every day to 100% I might actually see better battery life.

The only judgement I did make was that I would be very hesitant to buy any Leaf in a hot climate like Arizona... which strikes me as pretty non-controversial given the history of Leaf batteries in Arizona and the lack of long term data on the Gen2 40kWh pack or any data on the ePlus pack.
Doesn't sound like you really do agree with Sage. You are not in a cool or colder climate. Thank you for clarification, and sorry for my misinterpretation of your comment.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

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