JackTheCommuter
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:11 am
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2018

Re: 6 weeks with the e-plus, ask me anything

Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:31 pm

papayaparty wrote:
  • Breakfast and charge at Ebina or Ashigara. Can be stretched to Nakai.
  • Take the Shin-Tomei expressway: It's much faster, and has the new 120km/h limit segment, but has less charging spots
  • Rest and charge at Surugawan-Numazu, or stretch it to Shizuoka. This is probably the most important charging spot, before the 120km/h segment which can drain your battery really quick
  • Lunch and charge at Kariya
  • Take the Shin-Meishin: again, it's faster, but has less charging spots
  • Rest and charge at Tsuchiyama
  • Arrive at Kyoto with around 50% charge
  • If you're stretching it to Osaka, dinner and charge at Katsuragawa
  • Arrive at Osaka with around 50% charge


I didn't realize the change to allow speeds higher then 80kph (50mph) and now 120kph (74mph)! And I'm not too sure about the other countries, but my 2018 Leaf cruise control tops out at 120kph, can't set speeds any higher.

Thanks for the tips and especially the proposed route. While I do like that Lawson convenience store offer quick charging, I find many of them limited to 20kwh charging. And Aeon markets, at least in the Kawasaki area, aren't in the NCS network. I will definitely be on the look out for the 90kwh chargers, but I would think the Leaf would start throttling the charge rate when the battery reaches 60% charge level or so.

lorenfb
Posts: 1981
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 6 weeks with the e-plus, ask me anything

Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:07 pm

papayaparty wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
papayaparty wrote: I've always monitored the battery temperature, and it almost always stood at the middle of the gauge. It only went to about 70% after a 450km ride from Kyoto to Tokyo. But this is in spring... I'm interested to know how it will work in the summer.


Using LeafSpy, the center point of the temp gauge is about 80 deg F. About a 10% movement to the right is about 100 deg F,
per my 2019 40 kWh Leaf and LeafSpy after 30 minutes of a QC with ambient of about 75 deg F. Do you have LeafSpy?
If so, could you take a temp measurement at the 70% point, i.e. at about the 3/4 point on the scale? It's critical that the
battery temp be measured at the end of a lengthy QC session, i.e. greater than 30-45 minutes.


I did not know about LeafSpy. That looks pretty cool, so I just ordered a dongle to try it out. I'll report on it later.

In terms of temperature, I check it every morning (when I use the car), and it starts at about 30%. After some driving and a 30 min quick charge, it stays around 40%. Only after a 300km drive to Nagoya, with 3 quick charges, it went up to 50%.

The highest I've seen it is at around 70%-80%, after a 450km drive from Kyoto to Tokyo, with about 5 quick charges, including one before leaving.

We'll see how it behaves in the summer, but so far, it seems like temperature is not an issue (at least in Japan)


I have two of these, one in each Leaf;

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00QJ ... UTF8&psc=1

It's critical that you use LeafSpy to monitor the Leaf's battery temperature, i.e. while Quick Charging (QC), driving at high
speeds (> 70 mph), or climbing long and somewhat steep grades. After the 2019's (40kWh) first QC, 30 minutes with an ambient
temperature of 73, the battery temperature was at 100 deg F. My 24kWh Leaf's battery with many QCs for 20-30 minutes
never resulted in a temperature greater than 95 deg F. Given this temperature rise on the 40kWh battery, it's very
doubtful whether I'll do more than one QC per day, especially when the temperature here is 85 - 90 deg F in a few months.
I also noticed that the battery temperature began to rise significantly with ECO mode off and driving aggressively. Give the
additional 50% more power output of the 40kWh Leaf's motor, higher battery temperatures are to be expected.
By monitoring the Leaf's battery temperature over time, one can attempt to minimize the Leaf's battery degradation
the result of additional high temperatures while driving or charging, given the Leaf's lack of an active TMS (thermal
management system). Other than attempting to limit the temperature rise while charging by having the Leaf's BMS
limit the charging current as a function of the battery temperature, battery temperature monitoring should be
of concern.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 73K miles, 49 Ahrs, 5.1 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, max temp < 95F (35C), min discharge > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 200 miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.4 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99

papayaparty
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:28 am
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2019

Re: 6 weeks with the e-plus, ask me anything

Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:38 pm

JackTheCommuter wrote:
papayaparty wrote:
  • Breakfast and charge at Ebina or Ashigara. Can be stretched to Nakai.
  • Take the Shin-Tomei expressway: It's much faster, and has the new 120km/h limit segment, but has less charging spots
  • Rest and charge at Surugawan-Numazu, or stretch it to Shizuoka. This is probably the most important charging spot, before the 120km/h segment which can drain your battery really quick
  • Lunch and charge at Kariya
  • Take the Shin-Meishin: again, it's faster, but has less charging spots
  • Rest and charge at Tsuchiyama
  • Arrive at Kyoto with around 50% charge
  • If you're stretching it to Osaka, dinner and charge at Katsuragawa
  • Arrive at Osaka with around 50% charge


I didn't realize the change to allow speeds higher then 80kph (50mph) and now 120kph (74mph)! And I'm not too sure about the other countries, but my 2018 Leaf cruise control tops out at 120kph, can't set speeds any higher.

Thanks for the tips and especially the proposed route. While I do like that Lawson convenience store offer quick charging, I find many of them limited to 20kwh charging. And Aeon markets, at least in the Kawasaki area, aren't in the NCS network. I will definitely be on the look out for the 90kwh chargers, but I would think the Leaf would start throttling the charge rate when the battery reaches 60% charge level or so.


Expressways have always had a limit of 100km/h, but there are two segments (part of the Shin-Tomei, and somewhere in Tohoku) that last year tried 110km/h, and this year increased to 120km/h. They're officially still testing them, but very real. By the way, the pro pilot tops at 115km/h in my car. I wouldn't use it when driving above 100km/h though.

I don't know which part of Kawasaki you live in, but if you need quick charging, you will probably have a better time looking for Nissan dealers. Since I'm mostly using my car for leisure driving, I do most of my charging at SA/PAs, and michi-no-ekis. I do recommend the EVSmart app though.

papayaparty
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:28 am
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2019

Re: 6 weeks with the e-plus, ask me anything

Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:45 pm

lorenfb wrote:
papayaparty wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
Using LeafSpy, the center point of the temp gauge is about 80 deg F. About a 10% movement to the right is about 100 deg F,
per my 2019 40 kWh Leaf and LeafSpy after 30 minutes of a QC with ambient of about 75 deg F. Do you have LeafSpy?
If so, could you take a temp measurement at the 70% point, i.e. at about the 3/4 point on the scale? It's critical that the
battery temp be measured at the end of a lengthy QC session, i.e. greater than 30-45 minutes.


I did not know about LeafSpy. That looks pretty cool, so I just ordered a dongle to try it out. I'll report on it later.

In terms of temperature, I check it every morning (when I use the car), and it starts at about 30%. After some driving and a 30 min quick charge, it stays around 40%. Only after a 300km drive to Nagoya, with 3 quick charges, it went up to 50%.

The highest I've seen it is at around 70%-80%, after a 450km drive from Kyoto to Tokyo, with about 5 quick charges, including one before leaving.

We'll see how it behaves in the summer, but so far, it seems like temperature is not an issue (at least in Japan)


I have two of these, one in each Leaf;

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00QJ ... UTF8&psc=1

It's critical that you use LeafSpy to monitor the Leaf's battery temperature, i.e. while Quick Charging (QC), driving at high
speeds (> 70 mph), or climbing long and somewhat steep grades. After the 2019's (40kWh) first QC, 30 minutes with an ambient
temperature of 73, the battery temperature was at 100 deg F. My 24kWh Leaf's battery with many QCs for 20-30 minutes
never resulted in a temperature greater than 95 deg F. Given this temperature rise on the 40kWh battery, it's very
doubtful whether I'll do more than one QC per day, especially when the temperature here is 85 - 90 deg F in a few months.
I also noticed that the battery temperature began to rise significantly with ECO mode off and driving aggressively. Give the
additional 50% more power output of the 40kWh Leaf's motor, higher battery temperatures are to be expected.
By monitoring the Leaf's battery temperature over time, one can attempt to minimize the Leaf's battery degradation
the result of additional high temperatures while driving or charging, given the Leaf's lack of an active TMS (thermal
management system). Other than attempting to limit the temperature rise while charging by having the Leaf's BMS
limit the charging current as a function of the battery temperature, battery temperature monitoring should be
of concern.


Last year I rented a 40kWh leaf three times for long trips, and temperature definitely went up noticeably after a quick charge, and the car started throttling the charge after the second quick charge. I haven't experienced this once with the e-plus, and the most charges I've done were on the Kyoto to Tokyo drive (it was actually 5 stops, but 6 charges, as I charged twice in one stop).

It may be because the e-plus may have more cells to choose from when discharging/recharging, and can manage the temperature better simply because it has a larger battery.

But I'll let you know what I get when I start using LeafSpy. I'll report my findings in Celcius though, as I don't use, or even understand Farenheit. I hope you don't mind.

JackTheCommuter
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:11 am
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2018

Re: 6 weeks with the e-plus, ask me anything

Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:35 pm

papayaparty wrote:Expressways have always had a limit of 100km/h, but there are two segments (part of the Shin-Tomei, and somewhere in Tohoku) that last year tried 110km/h, and this year increased to 120km/h. They're officially still testing them, but very real. By the way, the pro pilot tops at 115km/h in my car. I wouldn't use it when driving above 100km/h though.

I don't know which part of Kawasaki you live in, but if you need quick charging, you will probably have a better time looking for Nissan dealers. Since I'm mostly using my car for leisure driving, I do most of my charging at SA/PAs, and michi-no-ekis. I do recommend the EVSmart app though.


I was cheap and ProPilot didn't fit my use case of mostly around town driving. The car sees about 30km (18mi) of usage daily on surface streets. Coming from the Los Angeles, California (USA), where freeway speeds hover around 140kph, I was surprised by the limitations of the Japan Leaf cruise control. It's a good thing I'm still wired to think speeds above "100" is a felony!

I do use the EV Smart app and was very pleased to see information such as charger occupied and since when it was occupied. Showing the charge rate potential was nice and when I found that Mitsubishi dealers have to 50kwh version, I hopped over to try it out. I came away disappointed as not much difference between the 44kwh version at Nissan dealers. Most of the charging is done at a QC at the local supermarket with a 40kwh version. Thirty minutes of charging results in about 35% increase for 40kw version of the Leaf. I'll use the level 2 charger to top off to 100% before a long trip or when the charge battery charge is under 30%.

@papayaparty : You mentioned a 90kwh charger in Kyoto. Where? I took a "walk" with the EV Smart app in the area and can't find it. How did you find out about this next generation charger?

cwerdna
Posts: 9034
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 6 weeks with the e-plus, ask me anything

Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:49 pm

Thanks for the insights from Japan and about the Plus version of Leaf. I've visited there 6x for vacation myself, the last time in 2017. Five of my trips there have included at least 2 days at Tokyo Motor show.

For those unfamiliar, Lawson and Family Mart are two very common convenience store (aka conbini) chains in Japan. 7-Eleven is another. Oddly (at last check), even the US 7-Elevens are now owned by the Japanese parent company.
JackTheCommuter wrote:. Showing the charge rate potential was nice and when I found that Mitsubishi dealers have to 50kwh version, I hopped over to try it out. I came away disappointed as not much difference between the 44kwh version at Nissan dealers. Most of the charging is done at a QC at the local supermarket with a 40kwh version. Thirty minutes of charging results in about 35% increase for 40kw version of the Leaf. I'll use the level 2 charger to top off to 100% before a long trip or when the charge battery charge is under 30%.

@papayaparty : You mentioned a 90kwh charger in Kyoto. Where?

I've noticed you made a bunch of unit errors. Charging rate is expressed in kW, a unit of power. Battery capacity and energy dispensed is in kWh, a unit of energy.

Thus, you should be talking about 50 and 44 kW chargers and 40 kWh version of Leaf.

This has come up many times. See viewtopic.php?p=540845#p540845, for example.

Thanks to someone who shall remain unnamed, I learned of "intermediate chargers" in Japan. Apparently, ones below 40 kW tend (?) to be called "intermediate". As I posted at viewtopic.php?p=524315#p524315:
cwerdna wrote:
SageBrush wrote:The 2018 LEAF DCFC should come with a big footnote that reads "up to 45 kW, as battery temperature and other variables allows."

Or just give up on the DCFC sham altogether and advertise DC L2+ speeds

Perhaps we need a new acronym: DCSC "DC slow charging."

FWIW, in Japan, they have "intermediate" (CHAdeMO) chargers.

See https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... ost-961564 and https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... ost-971287. As the 2nd post mentions, they even have some 10 kW CHAdeMO chargers there.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

papayaparty
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:28 am
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2019

Re: 6 weeks with the e-plus, ask me anything

Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:16 am

JackTheCommuter wrote:@papayaparty : You mentioned a 90kwh charger in Kyoto. Where? I took a "walk" with the EV Smart app in the area and can't find it. How did you find out about this next generation charger?


Kyoto Nissan Jidousha Jujo-ten:
https://evsmart.net/spot/kyoto/l261009/q261076/v2133/

I found it by accident, searching for chargers near my hotel. It was a bit far away, but when I saw "90kW", I decided I had to see that with my own eyes.

They have the new series of ShinDengen chargers, which have two cables, with a maximum combined output of 90kW, so if there are two cars charging at the same time, they won't get 90kW each.

https://www.shindengen.co.jp/products/n ... emo12.html

Here's a photo of the charger screen showing it is ready for 90kW charging:

https://imgur.com/a/bC8FXsv

The one in Kyoto has both an old 50kW charger, and the new 90kW charger, which means up to three cars can quick charge at the same time. However, the store clerk told me that the charging output of 90kW is only available for the e-plus.

Searching on EVsmart, I found other 90kW chargers:

Hamamatsu, Shizuoka prefecture: https://evsmart.net/spot/shizuoka/l2213 ... 325/v1826/
Washinomiya, Saitama prefecture: https://evsmart.net/spot/saitama/l112321/v4024/
Imaichi, Tochigi prefecture: https://evsmart.net/spot/tochigi/l92061/v470/
Ichinomiya, Aichi prefecture: https://evsmart.net/spot/aichi/l232033/v1894/

Unfortunately, there seem to be none in Tokyo, Chiba or Kanagawa... yet.

For reference, the Tesla superchargers seem to be 120kW.
Last edited by papayaparty on Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

papayaparty
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:28 am
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2019

Re: 6 weeks with the e-plus, ask me anything

Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:33 am

cwerdna wrote:Thanks to someone who shall remain unnamed, I learned of "intermediate chargers" in Japan. Apparently, ones below 40 kW tend (?) to be called "intermediate". As I posted at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 15#p524315:
cwerdna wrote:
SageBrush wrote:The 2018 LEAF DCFC should come with a big footnote that reads "up to 45 kW, as battery temperature and other variables allows."


Intermediate chargers, or "chuusoku juudenki" are I think an unofficial term for the slower, 20kW chargers. I think that as quick chargers "kyuusoku juudenki" get more output, and cars get larger batteries, the definitions will slowly shift.

Quick charging in Japan is usually limited to 30 minutes per charge, and good manners indicate that you should not charge twice in sequence if there are other cars waiting in line, so the theoretical maximum charge you can get is:

90kW quick charger: 45kWh (187% of 24kWh, 107% of 40kWh, 72% of 62kWh)
55kW quick charger: 27.5kWh (114% of 24kWh, 68% of 40kWh, 44% of 62kWh)
50kW quick charger: 25kWh (104% of 24kWh, 63% of 40kWh, 40% of 62kWh)
45kW quick charger (most common): 22.5kWh (94% of 24kWh, 56% of 40kWh, 36% of 62kWh)
40kW quick charger: 20kWh (83% of 24kWh, 50% of 40kWh, 32% of 62kWh)
20kW intermediate charger: 10kWh (42% of 24kWh, 25% of 40kWh, 16% of 62kWh)

But, as you get closer to 100%, the car starts throttling the charge. In my e-plus, I think it starts throttling at around 80%, so if you want to optimize the charging session (especially if you have to pay per-minute), you want to wait until the car loses a lot of charge. In practical terms, I can get from 50% to 82% with a 45kW charger, and from 10% to 80% with two charges in succession.

cwerdna
Posts: 9034
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 6 weeks with the e-plus, ask me anything

Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:34 am

I finally got around to skimming more of this thread.
papayaparty wrote:[*] I'm paying a flat fee of 2000 yen a month (18 US dollars) to charge as much as I want in public chargers. So the more I drive it, the less it costs to do so.[/list]

That is really good. I don't know of anything that cheap in California for either CHAdeMO or SAE Combo.

If we had pricing like that in the US all throughout the US, we could sure get a lot more folks converting to EVs w/DC FC inlets.

Off the top of my head, there is https://www.evsolutions.com/ev-network but that's only for limited parts of WA and OR AND for DC FCing, CHAdeMO only.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

papayaparty
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:28 am
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2019

Re: 6 weeks with the e-plus, ask me anything

Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:47 am

cwerdna wrote:I finally got around to skimming more of this thread.
papayaparty wrote:[*] I'm paying a flat fee of 2000 yen a month (18 US dollars) to charge as much as I want in public chargers. So the more I drive it, the less it costs to do so.[/list]

That is really good. I don't know of anything that cheap in California for either CHAdeMO or SAE Combo.

If we had pricing like that in the US all throughout the US, we could sure get a lot more folks converting to EVs w/DC FC inlets.

Off the top of my head, there is https://www.evsolutions.com/ev-network but that's only for limited parts of WA and OR AND for DC FCing, CHAdeMO only.


I think this price is subsidized by Nissan, so I wouldn't bet on this continuing in the long run. Let me explain:

Every charger is free to use whatever payment mechanism they want. Many are completely free to use (like in government offices), others are free if you pay for parking. However, most chargers are part of the NCS network, which offers three subscription levels: quick-only (pink elephant), regular-only (green elephant), and combination (pink and green elephants).

https://www.nippon-juden.co.jp/tk/cd/

The combination subscription costs 4200 yen/month, plus 15 yen/minute for quick charging, and 2.5 yen/minute for regular charging.

In contrast, Nissan offers an NCS subscription on their ZESP2 program:

https://www3.nissan.co.jp/vehicles/new/ ... nance.html

The subscription costs 2000 yen/month, and no per-minute costs for quick charging on Nissan dealers, highway, convenience stores, malls, supermarkets, etc. It costs 1.5 yen/minute for regular charging anywhere, and 15 yen/minute for quick charging on non-Nissan dealers (like Toyota or Mitsubishi)

The catch is that this is only available for Nissan EV owners, and you have to get a Nissan credit card (1250 yen/year) where the costs will get charged.

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