mitrals
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:03 am
Delivery Date: 15 Jun 2019
Location: Chicago IL

Re: Has anyone seen so much degradation in a month

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:02 am

Jerryr wrote:What is strange is with 50,000 miles LeafSpy shows only 9 L1/L2 charge sessions. Why would that he?


Image


Thats what I was concerned about. Created a thread here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29381
2012 Leaf SL. 9 Bars 50K miles - 06/15/2019 - Daily driver
2018 Honda Clarity Plug in Touring- Bought 04/26/19 - Daily driver

Previous electric cars:
2013 Leaf SV. Bought with 11 bars and 4K miles.
2013 Cmax Energi.
2013 Fusion Energi Titanium.

mitrals
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:03 am
Delivery Date: 15 Jun 2019
Location: Chicago IL

Re: Has anyone seen so much degradation in a month

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:10 am

powersurge wrote:If the Original poster bought an original Leaf with 67% SOH, then he must expect that the battery is at the point of decline. It is to be expected...

Possibly, he should be thinking of battery replacement options...


If the SOH stayed at 67% I would be fine. I baby the car, have the long life setup for charging and always charge between 40-80%.
2012 Leaf SL. 9 Bars 50K miles - 06/15/2019 - Daily driver
2018 Honda Clarity Plug in Touring- Bought 04/26/19 - Daily driver

Previous electric cars:
2013 Leaf SV. Bought with 11 bars and 4K miles.
2013 Cmax Energi.
2013 Fusion Energi Titanium.

mitrals
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:03 am
Delivery Date: 15 Jun 2019
Location: Chicago IL

Re: Has anyone seen so much degradation in a month

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:20 am

Lothsahn wrote:
What Model year is your Leaf?

The picture you show only shows a 2.8% SOH drop. Small fluctuations are totally normal and not worth worrying about. A 5% drop, however, would be a bit larger. Things that can impact SOH: Changes to charging (using L1 instead of L2 or L3 charging, driving style (local vs highway), etc). You are likely charging and driving the car differently from the previous owner, which could account for a few percent of the SOH.


--This section may no longer be relevant. I posted in response to SageBrush's statement about a BMS reset --
A BMS reset is where the car's computer is tricked into thinking the battery is at full health when the battery is actually worn out. It's a trick some unscrupulous people will use to make a car with a bad battery look like it's 100% healthy.

It would be very strange for someone to do a BMS reset and then let the car get to 67% SOH before selling it. I don't think this is a BMS reset--something else may be going on. I wonder if one or more battery cells has gone bad and is influencing the SOH calculation.
--This section may no longer be relevant. I posted in response to SageBrush's statement about a BMS reset --


Do you have Leafspy? Can you post a picture of the battery cell voltages? It should look like this.
http://www.wind-works.org/cms/uploads/R ... 01.jpg.jpg

If you can do that, can you drive your car to the very low battery warning (VLBW, where the car shows --- miles remaining), and then grab the graph? Be sure to stay close to your house when trying to drain the battery if you've never gone that low before as failing batteries can potentially shut down with little warning. One way to safely drain the battery is to crank the heat to maximum in your driveway until the miles left on the dashboard hits ---.

Once you get the voltage at VLBW, be sure to immediately shut down the car and charge it. You don't want to leave the car at a low battery for very long.


2012 Leaf SL. I dont drive on the highway with this car. This is the third car I own and will never be more than 10-15 miles away from home, usually under 5 miles from home. The other day I charged to 80% drove 30 miles round trip on local roads with minimum traffic (got 4.3miles/kwh). Even though the SOC bars went down to 2, no LBW came on. I will probably drive the car to VLBW next week and post the leafspy readings. I have a level 2 charger at home for my PHEV that I can use for the leaf when required. I usually trickle charge to 80% every night starting at 10 PM and have only charged to 100% twice, once using the 110V charger and once using my level 2 charger to balance the cells.
2012 Leaf SL. 9 Bars 50K miles - 06/15/2019 - Daily driver
2018 Honda Clarity Plug in Touring- Bought 04/26/19 - Daily driver

Previous electric cars:
2013 Leaf SV. Bought with 11 bars and 4K miles.
2013 Cmax Energi.
2013 Fusion Energi Titanium.

mitrals
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:03 am
Delivery Date: 15 Jun 2019
Location: Chicago IL

Re: Has anyone seen so much degradation in a month

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:26 am

Lothsahn wrote:So a week after you got the car, it dropped by about 2%, and it's dropped another 2.7% or so after that. The one thing that's really strange is your car reported only 9 L1/L2 charges in 50k miles. That's... not possible. I wonder if the previous owner only charged the car using the quick charge (QC) port. If so, that would artificially inflate the SOH (and wear the pack out quickly). However, QC's usually show on that screen as well. Correct. This made no sense to me.

You have a 2012 battery pack. The battery packs made before 4/2013 are known to wear out and degrade significantly faster than later model years. Being in Chicago will help as the packs hate heat. My 2011 original battery was at 57% SOH, so your pack is in better shape than mine was. This pack should give you 40-45 miles range in the summer and around 25 miles in freezing temps with the heat on. Yup. I am aware of the pre4/2013 battery issue.

I saw the cell voltages picture and it shows that your pack is working fine. To see how the individual cells are faring, you really need to get the car to VLBW (--- on the dash) before taking that exact same screenshot. That said, I'm pretty sure you'll just find that the pack is old and worn out, and that the cells don't balance very well. Unfortunately, other than swapping all the battery cells out, there's not much to improve the situation.I will check this out next week

If the car meets your range needs, I expect that the dropping of the SOH is most likely just the car adjusting to your driving and charging habits, and the SOC drop should slow down or stop. If your commute is 14 miles/day, this car should meet your range needs for 3-4 years, way more if you're willing to forgo the heat. Thats the plan. Battery health going down is concerning.

If you start with the car fully charged, and you drive 20 miles with the car, is it at about half battery? If so, I wouldn't worry. SOH is just an estimate--what matters is the range you actually get. I can get 20+ miles before I lost 6 SOC bars

P.S.
1) Use the seat and steering wheel heaters as much as you want. They barely impact range. However, turning the heat on in the cabin will have a huge impact on range. Be happy you have a 2012--my 2011 doesn't have seat or steering wheel heaters.Yup, My second leaf and 5th electrical car. I know how to save battery in winter

2) You are using a L1 or L2 charger to charge the car, right? Avoid using the QC port on the car unless you absolutely have to. The QC port will heat up and wear out the battery quickly. This car will never get QC. I might do it once to see if leafspy detects it.

3) Can you update your signature to include the car you drive, area, mileage, etc? You can use my signature as an example.Done.

4) I'd you can, charge the car only to 80% in the summer (You can do 100% in the winter if you need the range). The pack will last longer. You can set a charge timer on a 2012 to automatically stop at 80%. Ping me if you need to know how to do that. Already on long life mode and dont plan to change anything.
2012 Leaf SL. 9 Bars 50K miles - 06/15/2019 - Daily driver
2018 Honda Clarity Plug in Touring- Bought 04/26/19 - Daily driver

Previous electric cars:
2013 Leaf SV. Bought with 11 bars and 4K miles.
2013 Cmax Energi.
2013 Fusion Energi Titanium.

palmermd
Posts: 2565
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:19 pm
Delivery Date: 31 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 1100011011
Location: Hermosa Beach, CA

Re: Has anyone seen so much degradation in a month

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:30 am

Jerryr wrote:What is strange is with 50,000 miles LeafSpy shows only 9 L1/L2 charge sessions. Why would that he?


Image


Wow, 5000 miles per charge is fantastic. :D
Michael

Leaf from 31 March 2011 - Traded 18 April 2018 for Tesla Model 3 Unicorn
Driving electric since 1996


Leaf Bar Loss

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Marktm
Gold Member
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:49 am
Delivery Date: 09 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 022737
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Has anyone seen so much degradation in a month

Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:53 am

My "Lizard" replacement battery has shown similar variations in ahr vrs time as yours - maybe not quite so pronounced and certainly not around the same time frame each year (my Leaf is in Houston, TX). If you would continue this disciplined data logging and plot it periodically, I'd appreciate it to compare in a totally different climate. Hard to compare historical driving habits and use/abuse of the battery - especially without the charge history - wonder what that is about?

Hope this helps:

Battery log 6.30.19.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
2012 Leaf SL; 43,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.

SageBrush
Posts: 4222
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Has anyone seen so much degradation in a month

Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:15 pm

Marktm wrote:I'd appreciate it to compare in a totally different climate.


Image
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13870
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Has anyone seen so much degradation in a month

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:10 am

You need to get away from this "100% is bad, 80% is ok" ideology. LEAF packs, especially the early ones don't work that well when used lightly.

Some of your loss is likely invalid due to light usage. If you know you will not be driving more than you do, then charge it to a lower SOC. Use the time and set it to charge 2 hours a day mon wed fri and one hour a day tue thurs. Keep SOC centered around 50% as much as possible.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

mitrals
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:03 am
Delivery Date: 15 Jun 2019
Location: Chicago IL

Re: Has anyone seen so much degradation in a month

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:20 pm

Something is really goofy with the pack. My soc is at 3 bars today with 19 miles on gom and leaf spy says I have 40% soc.
2012 Leaf SL. 9 Bars 50K miles - 06/15/2019 - Daily driver
2018 Honda Clarity Plug in Touring- Bought 04/26/19 - Daily driver

Previous electric cars:
2013 Leaf SV. Bought with 11 bars and 4K miles.
2013 Cmax Energi.
2013 Fusion Energi Titanium.

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 2157
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Has anyone seen so much degradation in a month

Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:13 pm

I suspect you have some weak cells. My 2015 with over 81,000 miles on it has several weak cells (based upon LEAF Spy graphs) which are really limiting range now. The dashboard instrumentation along with CAN Bus data which LEAF Spy can read have become very erratic. Try to take a screen shot of the cell voltage graph when the battery is at or below the very low battery warning. The charge count is strange because a LBC (lithium battery controller) reset will not reset the charge counts.

Edited to add: I suggest that you discharge the battery below VLBW by running the air conditioner while parked at home to get an idea of actual capacity without getting stranded. Then measure the time required to charge fully (either L1 or L2).
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

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