Most bars lost?

So today I finally lost my 5th bar and it started to make me wonder what is the most bars that anyone has lost? 6? 7? And will rate of loss change as the pack deteriorates?

I tried searching the forum, but with no real success. I know there was a capacity loss spreadsheet, but I haven't been able to find that today.

I've been keeping a log of my usage for a while now and it's probably time to extract that and see if I can analyze it - maybe I'll be able to evaluate my own rate of loss.

For those keeping score at home, I have a 2011 with 100k miles at 5 years of ownership used in the Seattle area. My capacity is at 59% today. Part of me wants to see just how long I can drive it and part wants to buy a new pack. Who know what I'll end up doing

FairwoodRed said:

So today I finally lost my 5th bar and it started to make me wonder what is the most bars that anyone has lost? 6? 7? And will rate of loss change as the pack deteriorates?

I tried searching the forum, but with no real success. I know there was a capacity loss spreadsheet, but I haven't been able to find that today.

I've been keeping a log of my usage for a while now and it's probably time to extract that and see if I can analyze it - maybe I'll be able to evaluate my own rate of loss.

For those keeping score at home, I have a 2011 with 100k miles at 5 years of ownership used in the Seattle area. My capacity is at 59% today. Part of me wants to see just how long I can drive it and part wants to buy a new pack. Who know what I'll end up doing

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6 bars lost is the most I've seen. See http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss

Your car is in the wiki for the 1st bar lost. Give me miles and dates for bars 2, 3, 4 and I'll add those and the 5th you just lost.

I'm curious as well. My 2012 SL here in Houston just dropped to 3rd bar at only 14640 miles.

I'm very curious as to the pack's behavior as the capacity drops. I only need the car to get me 20 miles in order to be useful. I am hoping it will be able to do at least that for a long time. I will likely not ever be buying a new pack for this car, but will upgrade to the latest technology when I need to.

But what happens when the battery fades below 5 or 6 bars? Does it just fail at some point? Does it continue to degrade? Does the degradation speed up or slow down?

These are all questions that many of us have. Our best bet for answers is to share our experiences.

No more regen, only friction brakes, so more wear.
http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=21961&p=462052#p462052

Reddy said:

No more regen, only friction brakes, so more wear.
http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=21961&p=462052#p462052

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Maybe thats more why my '12 missing 3 bars has such awful regen compared to my '13 missing no bars. I purchased the '12 used missing the 3 bars(hasn't dropped since I've owned it) but I thought minimal regen was more related to the year of the car and not necessarily the condition of the battery. I switch between my '12 and '13 and my '13 at 98% SOC has more regen than my '12 does even with a mostly discharged battery. Too bad as the '12 could really use more regen as it's battery holds significantly less capacity than my '13

Ok, here's somebody who has lost SEVEN bars, that's crazy:
http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=22387&start=10#p467481

I have a 5-capacity bar LEAF, and still have no hesitation going on a 60 mile round trip with a QC halfway. A short while ago, when there were 6 capacity bars, I went on an unplanned 100 mile round trip (thought it was about 70), which was an adventure as the last Nissan dealership with a QC that I stopped at was technically closed, but I was able to charge, and without that I don't think I would have made it home. I really can't see being in college and going more than 30 or 40 miles from the campus very often, especially if it is in a big city.

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dhanson865 said:

Your car is in the wiki for the 1st bar lost. Give me miles and dates for bars 2, 3, 4 and I'll add those and the 5th you just lost.

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I don't think I have dates and miles on the bar losses. I have LeafSpy logs, but I don't know if I can extract bar losses from those.

I did graph my capacity versus time and it looks remarkably consistent. I didn't see any real change in the capacity loss slope except for seasonal changes.

Reddy said:

Ok, here's somebody who has lost SEVEN bars, that's crazy:
http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=22387&start=10#p467481

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Hey, that's me!!!

At some point I'll get the data together, as I have recorded every time a capacity bar dropped. I'm thinking though that I'm not going to be able to see how low it will actually go, as I'm at 59,600 miles.

I will say that I have treated this battery nicely, I have only seen 7 temperature bars once, and that was only after a QC, and drive it with no more than four dots when I'm accelerating, which isn't often. For many months after I got the car, I would leave it outside overnight to keep it cooler, and charge on the 120V and also just to 80%, but of course I did switch over to the 240V as I couldn't withstand the inefficiency of the 120V charging at only about 85% efficiency, and now I can't have it less than 100% if I want to go anywhere out of my neighborhood. It has been quick charged a total of 62 times, and only on a few rare occasions more than one QC per day, and the second QC would be in the cooler evening as I was coming home.

My theory is that the dealership here in Florida destroyed the battery in the many months they had it out on their lot, in the heat and sun, keeping it at 100% charge all the time. It isn't the heat that destroys the battery, it isn't the 100% charge that destroys the battery, it is the combination of the two, with an exponential effect rather than a linear effect. I don't think the QC vs. L2 vs. L1 charging has any effect at all, at least that I've noticed. Of course, there is a time factor in there too, as now the batteries have aged, but I'm still thinking that factor is minimal compared to the heat + 100% factor.

I also don't understand how people are seeing a loss of regeneration, except of course when it is at 100% charge, which is much more often now. I drive it in ECO and still have what seems to me a normal amount.

sub3marathonman said:

Reddy said:

....I also don't understand how people are seeing a loss of regeneration, except of course when it is at 100% charge, which is much more often now. I drive it in ECO and still have what seems to me a normal amount.

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I don't know what my '12 was when new but now at 10 bars I can say for a fact that the regen(bubbles and engine breaking) is very minimal compared to my 12 bar '13, which to me is undesirable as the '12 could benefit from more range from the regen as it's range is already 20%?? less than the '13.
In comparison I get more regen on my '13 at 96% SOC than I ever get on my '12. Like you said at a high SOC on the '12 has basically nothing but even at 80, 70, 60 etc. regen on the '12 is minimal. In fact it seems to have a sweet spot, at higher SOC it's almost non existent, near the middle SOC it has some, sometimes shows full bubbles but near the bottom it seems to drop off a bit. Not as bad as high SOC but not as good as middle SOC.
I also notice as I approach a freeway off ramp I may have 2 or 3 bubbles of regen showing(with a middle SOC) but as soon as I hit the breaks I get another bubble or two :? Almost like at first it doesn't want to allow much regen but as soon as it takes a little regen it says, hey, I can take even more and it does......or so it seems.
I really wish I had better control over the regen, personally I'd like almost all I could get all the time, its one reason I frequently use the 80% option on both the '13 and even '12 when I can. I know coasting or hyper-miling may be more efficient in the long run but I frequently run in stop and go traffic or even approach stop lights and like the ability to not hit my breaks or as little as possible. I rarely drive in a country road or freeway situations that have lots of up and down hills where hyper-miling might be beneficial, I drive in stop and go traffic with my Leafs.

sub3marathonman said:

I also don't understand how people are seeing a loss of regeneration, except of course when it is at 100% charge, which is much more often now. I drive it in ECO and still have what seems to me a normal amount.

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Loss of regen occurs mostly when the temps get below 80F, more so below 50F, and very much so below 30F (probably not something that you're used to seeing).

Reddy said:

sub3marathonman said:

I also don't understand how people are seeing a loss of regeneration, except of course when it is at 100% charge, which is much more often now. I drive it in ECO and still have what seems to me a normal amount.

Click to expand...

Loss of regen occurs mostly when the temps get below 80F, more so below 50F, and very much so below 30F (probably not something that you're used to seeing).

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WOW, that's got to be the explanation!!

On a related note, the "very much so below 30F," back in 1989 I had just recently moved down to Florida, it was December 23rd, 24th, and 25th, when it got down to a "record setting 32 degrees" according to The Ledger for the 23rd, then down to 21 degrees on the 24th. There were rolling blackouts on Christmas Eve, as people refused to turn off their Christmas lights, and the people talked about it for a quarter century. Coming from up North, of course it was nothing, but it really devastated a lot of people down here, especially in the citrus industry, which Polk County is know for. And yes, now I'm one of those people shivering uncontrollably at 40 degrees if I don't have a winter coat on.

http://projects.ledgerdata.com/25th-anniversary-1989-christmas-freeze/#story2

Reddy said:

sub3marathonman said:

I also don't understand how people are seeing a loss of regeneration, except of course when it is at 100% charge, which is much more often now. I drive it in ECO and still have what seems to me a normal amount.

Click to expand...

Loss of regen occurs mostly when the temps get below 80F, more so below 50F, and very much so below 30F (probably not something that you're used to seeing).

Click to expand...

The amount of regen available is also speed dependent, with the most amount of regen available around 10-15 mph. Below and above that speed the amount of regen tapers off.

Definitely on '11-12 LEAFs with 2+ bars lost, the amount of regen lost is significant. It takes very careful driving to maximize efficiency where one used to get away with regen recapturing energy when slowing down.

4 bars down I only get about 1/3rd the amount of regen slowing from 45 mph to a stop than I did when the car was new. At freeway speeds I almost never get a full 30 kW of regen any more. With 50%+ SOC I only get about 15 kW of regen.

You really have to drive carefully to get high efficiency numbers now, it used to be easy when regen was normal.

dhanson865 said:

6 bars lost is the most I've seen. See http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss

Your car is in the wiki for the 1st bar lost. Give me miles and dates for bars 2, 3, 4 and I'll add those and the 5th you just lost.

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I finally got back to reviewing my LeafSpy logs and below is my bar loss info if you can add it to the wiki.

Date of loss - Forum Name - Location - Mileage at Loss - Months owned at loss - Mfg date - Year - VIN
Bar1 - June 30, 2013 - FairwoodRed - Seattle, WA - 44,700 - 24 Months - 06/11 - 2011 - 01876

Bar 2 - June 7, 2014 - FairwoodRed - Seattle, WA - 64,671 - 36 Months - 06/11 - 2011 - 01876

Bar 3 - May 28, 2015 - FairwoodRed - Seattle, WA - 83,900 - 47 Months - 06/11 - 2011- 01876

Bar 4 - Feb 10, 2016 - FairwoodRed - Seattle, WA - 95,645 - 56 Months - 06/11 - 2011 - 01876

Bar 5 - August 2, 2016 -FairwoodRed - Seattle, WA - 103,472 - 62 Months - 06/11 - 2011 - 01876

Bar 6 - June 2, 2017 - FairwoodRed - Seattle, WA - 116,240 - 72 Months - 06/11 - 2011 - 01876

I lost my 7th bar this weekend. I suspect that by the end of summer, I'll have to replace the pack.

FairwoodRed said:

dhanson865 said:

6 bars lost is the most I've seen. See http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss

Your car is in the wiki for the 1st bar lost. Give me miles and dates for bars 2, 3, 4 and I'll add those and the 5th you just lost.

Click to expand...

I finally got back to reviewing my LeafSpy logs and below is my bar loss info if you can add it to the wiki.

Date of loss - Forum Name - Location - Mileage at Loss - Months owned at loss - Mfg date - Year - VIN
Bar1 - June 30, 2013 - FairwoodRed - Seattle, WA - 44,700 - 24 Months - 06/11 - 2011 - 01876

Bar 2 - June 7, 2014 - FairwoodRed - Seattle, WA - 64,671 - 36 Months - 06/11 - 2011 - 01876

Bar 3 - May 28, 2015 - FairwoodRed - Seattle, WA - 83,900 - 47 Months - 06/11 - 2011- 01876

Bar 4 - Feb 10, 2016 - FairwoodRed - Seattle, WA - 95,645 - 56 Months - 06/11 - 2011 - 01876

Bar 5 - August 2, 2016 -FairwoodRed - Seattle, WA - 103,472 - 62 Months - 06/11 - 2011 - 01876

Bar 6 - June 2, 2017 - FairwoodRed - Seattle, WA - 116,240 - 72 Months - 06/11 - 2011 - 01876

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Bar 7 - March 25, 2018 -FairwoodRed - Seattle, WA - 125,229 - 81 Months - 06/11 - 2011 - 01876

FairwoodRed said:

I lost my 7th bar this weekend. I suspect that by the end of summer, I'll have to replace the pack.

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Did you see the announcement about refurbished packs for almost half the cost?

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=25540

The worst I know of is a 9 bar loser which I posted at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=513873#p513873.

dhanson865 said:

Did you see the announcement about refurbished packs for almost half the cost?

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=25540

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I do now. Thanks! I was really excited at first, but as I looked into it, it looks like those will be about 80% capacity packs. I made a comment over there, but my math says the cost per year should be about the same for my use and I may as well enjoy the higher capacity of a new pack for a few years.

FairwoodRed said:

dhanson865 said:

Did you see the announcement about refurbished packs for almost half the cost?

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=25540

Click to expand...

I do now. Thanks! I was really excited at first, but as I looked into it, it looks like those will be about 80% capacity packs. I made a comment over there, but my math says the cost per year should be about the same for my use and I may as well enjoy the higher capacity of a new pack for a few years.

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The quotes of actual news say greater than 80%, meaning that will be the minimum. Will it be noticeably more than the minimum or not? I don't know. But I'll keep my eyes and ears open for later developments. Pricing can change.

I bought a new 2016 30kw when they came out and I have 13,203 miles and just lost 3rd bar, yes you read right 3rd bar.