Running Inverters off the Leaf's 12v system

I am in Northern VA, and luckily (for us) the storm went mostly to the north.
My tree and house damages were within acceptable limits. Power hardly went off.

I've been using a 250 watt inverter running off the cabin light fuse on
the fuse panel on the left of the steering wheel, for a couple of months.
I'm running a Win8 laptop which is recording the CAN bus data from the serial port
on the GID meter, a CLEAR WIMAX modem on a Cradlepoint router, and some
other assorted electronics. The ground is attached to one of the seat bolts.
I have a Series 29 (biggest) Marine battery in parallel in a battery box.
I can watch the voltage and power in and out of the inverter on its display.
I have some questions about running inverters off the Nissan LEAF 12 volt supply.
In the 2012 Nissan LEAF:
When the engine is OFF, the DC/DC converter cycles on at infrequent intervals.
Without putting my foot on the brake, pushing the power on switch once gives
me the radio and accessories (will turn itself off after an hour or so) but does
not seem to change the DC/DC converter cycling frequency.
Without putting my foot on the brake, pushing the power on switch a second
time gives me climate control and seat heaters but again does not seem to
drastically increase the frequency with which the DC/DC converter cycles on.
When I put my foot on the brake and push the on button to turn on the car,
the DC/DC converter seems to come on and stay on.
When I let this setup run for over 8 hours with the engine off, the 10 amp
"add on" fuse will typically blow from the inrush current when I turn on the car.
Sometimes I will get in the car and find the fuse blew while I was out and the
DC/DC converter cycled. The laptop and cradlepoint router have their own batteries,
so they will continue operating for some time, but
this setup leaves some room for improvement. I ordered a large package of
10 amp fuses off Ebay, direct from China, to satisfy this requirement.
Questions I have are:
1. Is there a pin that controls the DC/DC converter "ON", or is it under software
control on the CAN bus? Or both.
Should it not be possible to decrease the interval between
"ON" cycles so that it comes on once every ten minutes for ten seconds, for
example? I would not think this would heat up the DC/DC converter to the point that
the liquid coolant would need to be circulating.
2. Has anyone found a 400 volt DC input inverter which is actually obtainable?
3. What is involved in upgrading the Chademo software version from the one
that will not do LEAF to home to the newer version that will? Where does this
software or firmware actually reside? Is there somewhere the Miev power device
can actually be purchased?
4. The Nissan LEAF 12 volt batteries seem to run down if the car is not cycled to
the engine on position. Should there not be some adaptive learning that takes
place so the car's brain looks at the state of charge of the battery and makes
some determination of how often to cycle the dc/dc converter? This could be
reset once a day to the default state.
5. Does the Nissan LEAF sense the state of charge of the 12 volt battery, and if
so, where does this take place and what data would be transmitted on which bus?
The "dummy lights" on the dash do not seem to indicate when the 12v battery is low.
6. I was thinking of running a larger inverter to power a microwave oven in the
cargo bay so I could warm up one of those seat warmer pads to keep from having
to use cabin climate control in the winter. A mini refrigerator would also be nice
in the summer. If I were able to obtain a 400 volt inverter, could an adapter be
made up to connect it to the plug from the charger to the battery (which is
already located in the back)? Would someone be interested in making this up?

Thank you for any and all input.
Jim

Jim, lots of questions up there, but the directly link to the battery caught my attention. Obviously, you can provide a connection directly to the battery that would not require the car to be on, or power the DC/DC converter. I would want some type of shut down protection at 350 volts to protect the pack from "bricking". Our packs operate between 394 and slightly below 300 volts, however 90% of the available energy can be harnessed between 350-394, hence the 350 volt threshold for bricking:

http://www.tdipower.com/PDF/inverters/inv_lce_whisper_quiet_1.75kva.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Input Voltage: Nominal 367VDC (210-400VDC),
Model LCE-Q • 210 - 400VDC Input
PROTECTION
Input Undervoltage, Input Overvoltage, Output Overload, Output Short Circuit ENVIRONMENTAL Cooling: internal fan
Operating Temp: -20° to +50°C Storage Temp: -50° to +85°C Humidity: 0-95% non-condensing Safety Agency: UL, CSA, CE RELIABILITY
MTBF: >500,000 hours MECHANICAL Package Options: Modular shelf mount/used
OUTPUT
Custom Voltages Available
Voltage: *120 or 208 V, *220 or 230 V, 50 or 60 Hz or as specified on order
Power/KVA: 1.75 KVA for any power factor zero lag to zero lead
or non linear load with crest
factors less than 2.8:1 Surge Rating: 4 KVA Motor starting for 10 sec.
36 amp peak at 120 VAC
18 amp peak at 230VAC Line Distortion: Less than 1% THD
with or without 19” shelf Elcon connector: PN 241-28-01100 Elcon mating connector: PN 242- 27-01100 (Note: this is a float mount or crimp type housing)

Under 13 lbs. (5.89 kg) W 5.25” (13.34cm) x H 5.25” Max. (13.34cm) x D 15.5” (39.37cm)

Less than 2% Better than 0.1% stability
86% Min. Half Load to Full Load Standby Dissipation: Under 100 Watts No Load

poweredbysun said:

I am in Northern VA, and luckily (for us) the storm went mostly to the north.
My tree and house damages were within acceptable limits. Power hardly went off.

Click to expand...

Glad to Hear!

poweredbysun said:

I've been using a 250 watt inverter running off the cabin light fuse on
the fuse panel on the left of the steering wheel, for a couple of months.

Click to expand...

This seems fine.

poweredbysun said:

I'm running a Win8 laptop which is recording the CAN bus data from the serial port
on the GID meter, a CLEAR WIMAX modem on a Cradlepoint router, and some
other assorted electronics. The ground is attached to one of the seat bolts.

Click to expand...

This seems fine. I'd love to hear more about your rig!

poweredbysun said:

I have a Series 29 (biggest) Marine battery in parallel in a battery box.

Click to expand...

This is not good in general, as the 3-stage algorithm in the Leaf is only optimized for the Leaf 12v battery's slightly different trigger voltages. Your marine battery may lose some electrolye if it's not lead-calcium. (most aren't) It will vent a little Hydrogen in the car when it's doing this, so be sure to keep sparks away, or run the vent outside (if possible). Also, you may be hurting the Leaf's battery by deep-cycling it (as it may "go first"), and if you tapped the negative on the Leaf's battery for your Parallel connection, you will add another layer. Always draw power from Chassis GND only!

poweredbysun said:

I can watch the voltage and power in and out of the inverter on its display.

Click to expand...

This seems fine, You've probably seen the voltage fluctuate as the Leaf's 3-stage does it's thing. (It'll usually start high, fall, then rise and fall again)

poweredbysun said:

I have some questions about running inverters off the Nissan LEAF 12 volt supply.

Click to expand...

A LOT! =)

poweredbysun said:

In the 2012 Nissan LEAF:
When the engine is OFF, the DC/DC converter cycles on at infrequent intervals.
Without putting my foot on the brake, pushing the power on switch once gives
me the radio and accessories (will turn itself off after an hour or so) but does
not seem to change the DC/DC converter cycling frequency.
Without putting my foot on the brake, pushing the power on switch a second
time gives me climate control and seat heaters but again does not seem to
drastically increase the frequency with which the DC/DC converter cycles on.
When I put my foot on the brake and push the on button to turn on the car,
the DC/DC converter seems to come on and stay on.
When I let this setup run for over 8 hours with the engine off, the 10 amp
"add on" fuse will typically blow from the inrush current when I turn on the car.
Sometimes I will get in the car and find the fuse blew while I was out and the
DC/DC converter cycled. The laptop and cradlepoint router have their own batteries,
so they will continue operating for some time, but
this setup leaves some room for improvement. I ordered a large package of
10 amp fuses off Ebay, direct from China, to satisfy this requirement.

Click to expand...

I recommend a large diode in series between the Leaf 12v and the Marine battery, then a install a self-resetting thermal breaker (cheap) set for whatever amperage your diode is capable of, somewhere at or below 10A. This will eliminate the Nuisance tripping and ensure your battery system doesn't charge so fast, as well as reducing loads. This will not overcharge your marine battery, and thus less gassing.

poweredbysun said:

Questions I have are:
1. Is there a pin that controls the DC/DC converter "ON", or is it under software
control on the CAN bus? Or both.

Click to expand...

The DC-DC is only active when the main contactors are closed. These (and the DC-DC) are controlled by the VCM, and they are not externally controllable, except when the VCM does get around to it's timer interrupt and checks the voltage, it should begin charging the now fully deep cycled Leaf 12v. (Your Marine sucks it down a lot! Ouch!) Your Deep cycle would also then be overchaged too, except you chose a fuse that's only hot when the car is on. Personally, You'd be way better off simply taking the marine battery out, and just installing a good deep-cycle AGM under the hood, then run your inverter off a hot-always fuse. It will then charge properly. (of course it'll cost more, but it's more elegant, much safer, and less weight. Also, you won't have a big dangerous battery in your cabin!

poweredbysun said:

Should it not be possible to decrease the interval between
"ON" cycles so that it comes on once every ten minutes for ten seconds, for
example? I would not think this would heat up the DC/DC converter to the point that
the liquid coolant would need to be circulating.

Click to expand...

The VCM controls this, so not without a VCM firmware change. The VCM also controls the pumps, so it will cool the DC-DC properly in any event.

poweredbysun said:

2. Has anyone found a 400 volt DC input inverter which is actually obtainable?

Click to expand...

No, they make larger ones, but they are st00pid Expensive. You can make one pretty easily out of a cheap 240v VFD though. But I don't advise doing this, messing with the Leaf's 400V is DEADLY, and even if you get it right, the Leaf can only provide 400v with the same rules as the 12v DC-DC. (When the Contators in the Battery box close) This is During Ready, 12v battery maint mode, or when charging or remote climate. Why not ditch the 120v inverter and run your logging/net hardware off 12v? Surely it can pretty easily, and you can get a 12v Laptop adapter for your PC. This will be way more efficient than double (actually triple) converting everything!

poweredbysun said:

3. What is involved in upgrading the Chademo software version from the one
that will not do LEAF to home to the newer version that will? Where does this
software or firmware actually reside? Is there somewhere the Miev power device
can actually be purchased?

Click to expand...

Nissan can flash the firmware. My guess is if you have 296A0-3NA2B or higher, you probably already have it. (That's what you'd need at a minimum anyway) Note that you cannot drive the Leaf while the CHAdeMO (or L2) port is in use, regardless of whether you are currently charging or not. If there's a connector there, it will not drive, period. There is no easy way to defeat this interlock, though you could run the st00pid Expensive iMiEV power box off 400v! =) I think you can order one from a Japanese Mitsu dealer easy enough.

poweredbysun said:

4. The Nissan LEAF 12 volt batteries seem to run down if the car is not cycled to
the engine on position. Should there not be some adaptive learning that takes
place so the car's brain looks at the state of charge of the battery and makes
some determination of how often to cycle the dc/dc converter? This could be
reset once a day to the default state.

Click to expand...

There's a lot of room for technical improvements in the Leaf. It feels like it was a rushed program, so limited testing was done on the Gen1 Leaf. Expect to see many these problems addressed in some way in 2013 model.

poweredbysun said:

5. Does the Nissan LEAF sense the state of charge of the 12 volt battery, and if
so, where does this take place and what data would be transmitted on which bus?

Click to expand...

Yes. The VCM monitors it's voltage, battery amperage, and temperature when it is awake. It is asleep most of the time the Leaf is off, except when the timer interrupt occurs to wake it every so often (I don't remember this interval, but I bet you know it because every time it's going to pop a 10A fuse!) There is no passive data on any CAN bus, though it has a queryable parameter, sadly I cannot tell you how to do this. =( However, you can wake up the VCM by putting 12V on pin 11 of the TCU (the black box to the right of the glovebox.) It will wake the TCU, so I would guess if it sees a low voltage at this point it may close the DC-DC for 5 minutes for a charge session, at least if your pack has sufficient charge. I have not confirmed this. This is also a way to wake up the VCM so it will respond to CAN commands. If you wanted to, you could simply shut down your PC when the car goes off and then turn it on with the VCM power relay goes on, as you can NEVER have any CAN activity without the VCM on (to my knowledge anyway).

poweredbysun said:

The "dummy lights" on the dash do not seem to indicate when the 12v battery is low.

Click to expand...

Correct. This only illuminates if the DC-DC fails and the 12v isn't charging.

poweredbysun said:

6. I was thinking of running a larger inverter to power a microwave oven in the
cargo bay so I could warm up one of those seat warmer pads to keep from having
to use cabin climate control in the winter. A mini refrigerator would also be nice
in the summer. If I were able to obtain a 400 volt inverter, could an adapter be
made up to connect it to the plug from the charger to the battery (which is
already located in the back)? Would someone be interested in making this up?

Click to expand...

You could in theory do this, but wouldn't a simple electric seat heater pad be way more efficient and useful? It will last the whole time you are driving, and draw less power, heat up faster, etc. I put them in on my car, along with my Climate Control Upgrade, and it's my favorite upgrade next to my 6.7kW charger! Also: be warned that there is NO 400v in the back of the car anytime except when the Leaf is actively charging on J1772, so this could not work. There is no way to pull 400v off the pack directly without involving the VCM, which is done for safety. Besides, you'd code the Leaf instantly if you attempted to bypass this, in ANY WAY, and then your Leaf would be un-driveable until you clear the proprietary codes. You could, however, easily PROPERLY install a 1000w 12v inverter and safely run your mini-fridge off it, as long as the Leaf is ready, and you wouldn't damage anything. You would however, take a range hit if you used it. Just attach a 100a DC fuse directly to the Leaf's 12v + terminal, and your inverter + to the fuse. Connect the negative lead from your inverter to the DC-DC converter housing. There is a bolt there for the purpose. (Follow the Leaf GND cable) DO NOT EVER attach ANYTHING directly to the Leaf's negative battery terminal, even for jump-starting!!!

poweredbysun said:

Thank you for any and all input.
Jim

Click to expand...

You're welcome! I advise creating a separate new thread if you have more questions, using a new thread for each specific question, this way answers would be more useful in the future, and you weren't hijacking this one! (Mods, please split this and all responses to it into a new thread if possible, Thanks!)

-Phil

Sorry about hijacking the wrong thread. 40k homes are still without electricity and could use LEAFS for power.
I do not mean to interfere with this in any way...

Thank you for the useful responses. How much does the 400 volt 1.7kw inverter run, I wonder? Whisper quiet sounds great for the Nissan LEAF! Maybe it can mount under the hood if the charger connection is not available.

I will try to post a picture of my internet connected Nissan LEAF, with a NETFLIX movie running on the Windows 8 GID meter recording laptop sitting on the battery box with all the wires everywhere. The internet connections are useful for remotely monitoring the LEAF and watching the neighborhood through the cameras in the car. With a satellite connection, people in disaster areas could stay connected through their Nissan LEAF vehicles, without a doubt.

It is good to know I would cause an error code that renders my Nissan LEAF unusable before I put in a 400 volt inverter
and find out the hard way. And also that the wires from the charger are only hot when the charger is operating.
Thank you, Ingineer. You are the greatest!

I had a black 2011 LEAF and upgraded to a blue 2012 LEAF so I have the seat heaters and steering wheel heater.
They are "off" when the engine is "off" and come on with the second press of the on switch without the foot on the brake. The 2012 is so much much better than the 2011 I had. I have never had to charge over 80% except to equalize the batteries, where I was sometimes making my destination on fumes with the 2011 battery complete charge.

It would be nice to have a heat pad for while the engine is off, I am thinking. When the temperature got below
freezing a couple of days last week, I felt chilled after about 10 minutes of no heat. The pads are supposed to
hold heat for an hour or more, in theory. These might help people with no heat in their houses if they can pop them in the microwave in the Nissan LEAF for a few minutes to get them toasty.

In the 2012 the dome light fuse is always on, and I put a Littlefuse "add-on" circuit on there to take the power off.
I am not blowing the LEAF fuse, but the add on circuit fuse. That is great advice to put in a thermal breaker.
I will definitely get an AGM to replace the Nissan LEAF 12 volt battery. I guess I can special order one the right size.
This is a very small battery space in there. I can hopefully move it to a 2013 LEAF in January, when I upgrade.

The ground through the seat bolts is chassis ground, from the way I see things. It seems to work fine.
I did not see a way to get the 12 volts off the battery into the cabin through existing holes, or I would have
done this instead.

I can see why the Nissan LEAF is designed to not move while plugged in to 1772 and chademo connectors, so
no one accidentally drives off while still plugged in to an EVSE.

Sorry again about hijacking the Super Storm thread. I only had $1450 of damages to repair while
there are plenty of unfortunate people who are still without power. In the future I'll try to only ask questions
related to the storm on the storm thread. If someone tells me how to break this up, I can try to do that.

poweredbysun said:

It would be nice to have a heat pad for while the engine is off, I am thinking. When the temperature got below freezing a couple of days last week, I felt chilled after about 10 minutes of no heat. The pads are supposed to hold heat for an hour or more, in theory. These might help people with no heat in their houses if they can pop them in the microwave in the Nissan LEAF for a few minutes to get them toasty.

Click to expand...

As Phil said, you'd be putting a large drain on the LEAF's power source to do this. Better to other existing and more efficient survival gear: 1) check on ThermaCare ( http://www.thermacare.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) or comparable single use heat packs, 2) try reuseable sodium acetate filled vinyl pouches. These both use chemical reactions to generate heat when needed. ThermaCare's belt product when used properly can keep you plenty warm for over 10-12 hours. The sodium acetate can be recharged in boiling water (using a small propane burner/wood fire) in several minutes and stored and remain ready for later use as needed. It is a phase change material that releases stored heat in an exothermic reaction when crystalized.

Using these and other efficient ways of producing and conserving heat (check out emergency thermal blankets, @$2-2.50, that reflect back up to 95%+ of body heat) will help preserve the precious and limited electricity in your LEAF. Similarly look for alternatives for keeping things cold with no, or little, electricity. Hint: the emergency blanket also keeps cold things cold by keeping heat out. Often low-tech solutions are the best solutions.

Hi

I have 1350 watt inverter which seems like would be ok to run from leaf if D.C./D.C. Is rated at 100amp.

But inverter is 24 volt input.

Is there an additional tap on D.C./D.C. By chance that can get me the 24 v D.C. Needed. Otherwise I need to buy new inverter or come up with second battery that discharges then switch to be charged by leaf while leaf 12v battery is disconnected and discharges. Too complicated. Looking for hurricane relief for tuning fridge for a while.

If I get new 12 inverter i assume I would need nice heave connection to 12 battery direct under the hood on leaf.

Mahalo for this.

If anyone has Links to making leaf into temp house battery or charge direct from solar please pass on.

Jeff

First, I would check to see if your inverter doesn't also work on 12 volts. Call the company you got it from to see about an exchange. Call the manufacturer to see if there's a setting inside the inverter for 12 volts.

There's not going to be a 24 volt output from the DC2DC on the 12 volt LEAF.

You could get 24V by putting 2 LEAFs in series.

A DC to DC regulator, that will handle enough watts to be useful, will cost you as much as a new 12V inverter. So, you'll need to buy a new inverter

Ingineer said:

You could, however, easily PROPERLY install a 1000w 12v inverter ... as long as the Leaf is ready, and you wouldn't damage anything. You would however, take a range hit if you used it. Just attach a 100a DC fuse directly to the Leaf's 12v + terminal, and your inverter + to the fuse. Connect the negative lead from your inverter to the DC-DC converter housing. There is a bolt there for the purpose. (Follow the Leaf GND cable) DO NOT EVER attach ANYTHING directly to the Leaf's negative battery terminal, even for jump-starting!!!

Click to expand...

I would like to do exactly this. Is there a specific pure-sinewave 1000watt inverter that people have used and liked for this purpose ?

This outfit has a lot of them, but I'm not sure how to differentiate. Will the $156 one suffice, or should I spring for one of the $300+ ones ? Obviously I don't need he charging capability or a transfer switch. Good surge capability is important, since a fridge will be one of the main loads and I imagine it surges when the compressor kicks in:

https://invertersrus.com/product-category/power-inverters/pure-sine-wave/12v-psw/medium-12v-psw/

I just bought the components for a 200AH 1250/3750 watt backup circuit for my fridge and freezer and, hopefully, sump pump (that one already has its own). However, I had to get an inverter-charger so I can't help. If your needs are shorter term and 200-300AH is enough, my system components cost about $900. Figure a grand or so for 300AH. I'll still have to drag the generator out after about 6 hours of outage.

LeftieBiker said:

I just bought the components for a 200AH 1250/3750 watt backup circuit ...

Click to expand...

Not quite following. You're talking amp-hours, as in a battery backup system ? Why are you not just using the big battery in your Leaf (via the small battery in your Leaf) ?

RustyShackleford said:

LeftieBiker said:

I just bought the components for a 200AH 1250/3750 watt backup circuit ...

Click to expand...

Not quite following. You're talking amp-hours, as in a battery backup system ? Why are you not just using the big battery in your Leaf (via the small battery in your Leaf) ?

Click to expand...

I'm talking about a system in my basement that will allow me to go to battery backup power for the fridge, sump pump, and maybe freezer without having to leave the house, set up and run the generator, or mess with my car - which is usually in my cramped garage. Leaf to home systems are fine, but they are limited in how much power they can provide at once to about 1.5kw - 1.8 if you want to push it. Now if I really want to get fancy, I can come up with a way to link my Leaf (or our Plug-In Prius) to that battery backup system through the garage and house wiring, and extend the runtime for days. That, however, would still involve messing with my leased Leaf or my housemate's beloved PIP...

LeftieBiker said:

Now if I really want to get fancy, I can come up with a way to link my Leaf (or our Plug-In Prius) to that battery backup system through the garage and house wiring, and extend the runtime for days.

Click to expand...

That's kinda where I'm at, because I figure I'd be happy with the "connect 1000watt inverter to Leaf 12v" plan (enough for fridge, modem, and some lites) EXCEPT for one big exception - the well pump, which needs 240vac and well over 1000 watts surge (stop me if I already blathered about this on one of the innumerable other threads). So have a small battery backup system which includes a 240vac inverter, and keep that battery charged from the Leaf. Only problem there is, 240vac inverters seems to start over $1000 and 4000 watts - kinda overkill.

Been looking at 120vac<->240vac transformers, less than $100: https://www.amazon.com/ELC-T-2000-2000-Watt-Converter-Transformer/dp/B00FHHVC1C/ref=sr_1_12_sspa?gclid=CjwKCAjwg-DpBRBbEiwAEV1_-CuhdVvRKJqsDKf3WRQYSdp5V6qIwLYj5APepUi-UTpdXRnqbam_sRoCKoQQAvD_BwE&hvadid=177298182385&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9009671&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=17634826077971877955&hvtargid=kwd-2937125317&hydadcr=18913_9698567&keywords=120v+to+240v+converter&qid=1564017180&s=gateway&sr=8-12-spons&psc=1
... and hope the 120vac inverter (tied to Leaf 12v) can handle the well pump's startup surge.

But connecting that to the well when power fails might be more of a pain than going to the damn store and buying bottled water . Seriously, I'm thinking of bagging getting the well pump to run. Most of the time when the grid goes down for more than a couple hours, we have a lot of warning (from the weatherman of hurricanes and winter storms). Fill the bathtub with water for flushing the shitter, fill some jugs with drinking/cooking water, and call it good; can't shower anyhow, since running the water heater is unlikely. But no substitute for a working refrigerator, or a working modem (when you landline runs over the internets).

Ita a waste.
The leaf on, in park, with no additional lights or hvac on will draw about 700 watts.

RustyShackleford said:

LeftieBiker said:

Now if I really want to get fancy, I can come up with a way to link my Leaf (or our Plug-In Prius) to that battery backup system through the garage and house wiring, and extend the runtime for days.

Click to expand...

That's kinda where I'm at, because I figure I'd be happy with the "connect 1000watt inverter to Leaf 12v" plan (enough for fridge, modem, and some lites) EXCEPT for one big exception - the well pump, which needs 240vac and well over 1000 watts surge (stop me if I already blathered about this on one of the innumerable other threads). So have a small battery backup system which includes a 240vac inverter, and keep that battery charged from the Leaf. Only problem there is, 240vac inverters seems to start over $1000 and 4000 watts - kinda overkill.

Been looking at 120vac<->240vac transformers, less than $100: https://www.amazon.com/ELC-T-2000-2000-Watt-Converter-Transformer/dp/B00FHHVC1C/ref=sr_1_12_sspa?gclid=CjwKCAjwg-DpBRBbEiwAEV1_-CuhdVvRKJqsDKf3WRQYSdp5V6qIwLYj5APepUi-UTpdXRnqbam_sRoCKoQQAvD_BwE&hvadid=177298182385&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9009671&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=17634826077971877955&hvtargid=kwd-2937125317&hydadcr=18913_9698567&keywords=120v+to+240v+converter&qid=1564017180&s=gateway&sr=8-12-spons&psc=1
... and hope the 120vac inverter (tied to Leaf 12v) can handle the well pump's startup surge.

But connecting that to the well when power fails might be more of a pain than going to the damn store and buying bottled water . Seriously, I'm thinking of bagging getting the well pump to run. Most of the time when the grid goes down for more than a couple hours, we have a lot of warning (from the weatherman of hurricanes and winter storms). Fill the bathtub with water for flushing the shitter, fill some jugs with drinking/cooking water, and call it good; can't shower anyhow, since running the water heater is unlikely. But no substitute for a working refrigerator, or a working modem (when you landline runs over the internets).

Click to expand...

In my case it's the the sump pump giving me pause. It's only 1/3HP but it has a high starting load - something like 900 watts. The inverter I'm using is only rated for 1250 watts continuous but it will do 3750 watts for up to 20 seconds. Since that is not much if any shorter than the typical sump pump cycle I think I'll be ok. I don't have to worry yet, though, because my housemate just told me she wants the sump pump to stay on its own, aging UPS for now. You can't use a 120 volt well pump? Can't install a 120 volt backup pump for power outages only? Maybe a big gravity tank in the attic?

LeftieBiker said:

You can't use a 120 volt well pump? Can't install a 120 volt backup pump for power outages only? Maybe a big gravity tank in the attic?

Click to expand...

I think the run is too far for 120v pump; and don't really see how you'd put two pumps in one well.

What about put adding some 12v RV pumps to an above ground open tank to pressurize water to the pressurization tank?

There are about a dozen setups for well pumping. How deep is the well, how big is the pump and what kind of pump setup is it?

For me I have a 120 ft deep 16 inch bore well with water at 108' I could easily put 3 or 4 pumps down there. Or no pump at all and go with a jet pump, where the pump is on the surface and a jet rig brings well water to the surface. I could go non electric and use a pneumatic diaphragm pump.

Inverters and well pumps are natural enemies. I'm not even going to try to run a well pump off an inverter. There are better options to pump water and better uses for an inverter rather than trash it by beating it up starting a well pump.

Oilpan4 said:

What about put adding some 12v RV pumps to an above ground open tank to pressurize water to the pressurization tank?

There are about a dozen setups for well pumping. How deep is the well, how big is the pump and what kind of pump setup is it?

For me I have a 120 ft deep 16 inch bore well with water at 108' I could easily put 3 or 4 pumps down there. Or no pump at all and go with a jet pump, where the pump is on the surface and a jet rig brings well water to the surface. I could go non electric and use a pneumatic diaphragm pump.

Inverters and well pumps are natural enemies. I'm not even going to try to run a well pump off an inverter. There are better options to pump water and better uses for an inverter rather than trash it by beating it up starting a well pump.

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They must do wells differently where you live. The well is just a 6" diameter steel pipe, and the submersible pump is maybe 4-5" in diameter. It's maybe 100ft deep, and I'm not sure where the water level is. It's all been completely trouble-free in the 32 years I've been here (except when lightning blew the pump up), so I'm loathe to screw with it. I suppose a 12v pump could somehow go on top of the main pump, if it could fit down between the pipe to the submersible (maybe 1-1/2' diameter) and the walls of the 6" pipe.

I take your point about trying to run the main pump off any kind of inverter though. Makes no sense. I should just get a generator if I think it's enough of a problem.

A storage tank above ground, with a second, 120 volt pump at it, wouldn't work?