Valdemar
Posts: 2403
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:33 am

Well folks, I suspect that Leafer77 was the first and the last person who was able to get a new pack through BBB Auto line. He just got lucky as it seems they missed the fact there was an existing lawsuit. My claim was declined, this is their response:

After careful review of the claim you submitted on [date], it has been determined that your claim is ineligible. The claim falls outside of the BBB Auto Line Jurisdiction because it involves a vehicle that is the subject of a lawsuit brought against the manufacturer or its authorized dealer. Please refer to Pages 7-8 of the booklet "How BBB Auto Line Works" under section 2 Jurisdiction of BBB Auto Line.


Here is the paragraph they are referring to:

D. Specific Disputes That Will Not Be Arbitrated
...
* Claims involving a vehicle that is the subject of a lawsuit brought against the manufacturer or its authorized dealer


Am I SOL here? Seems so.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB)
59.7AHr, SOH 93%, 118k miles
9kW Solar

Leafer77
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:38 pm
Delivery Date: 31 May 2011
Leaf Number: 3713

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:13 pm

Remember that my initial claim was rejected and I had to Appeal. Be sure to state that your problem is not covered by the battery degradation that the Class Action Lawsuit covered.

Below is my Comment regarding the decision, which I included in my Appeal:

Thank you for attempting to assist me with case NIS1512552.

Below are my comments for the record:

• My complaint about the Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity defect, should fall under the 8 years/100,000 mile warranty, due to “…defects in materials or workmanship…”.
• The vehicle is unusable to the consumer who expects more than 45 miles of highway driving, due to the lack of driving range, after three to four years or after 60,000 miles (in good weather and normal driving conditions).
• There is no disclosure to consumers about the estimated amount of range lost over the course of normal use and time.
• Comparable Electric Vehicle’s on the market do not exhibit excessive loss in their Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity.
• Accelerated Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity loss occurs after the Third Capacity Bar or third year of ownership, compared to prior Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity Bar or prior years of ownership: First Capacity Bar 21,085, Second Capacity Bar 36,360, Third Capacity Bar 52,109, and Fourth Capacity Bar 61,150.
• Stress caused by the lack of driving range, also known as “range anxiety” by the Nissan Leaf EV community, has caused me health and family issues.

I appreciate your attention to my concerns.

Valdemar
Posts: 2403
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:38 pm

Thanks for this info again, I didn't realize they initially rejected your case because of the lawsuit. There is still hope then.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB)
59.7AHr, SOH 93%, 118k miles
9kW Solar

EatsShootsandLeafs
Posts: 427
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:59 am
Delivery Date: 24 Aug 2012

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:25 pm

Good to hear op got his battery.

You asked how you got into this situation because you did your home work. Now that you are through and relieved, I feel okay offering how it happend: I think when you bought the car you listened to Nissan marketing and the part of you that really, really wanted an electric car, and ignored the part of you that surely was saying something seems off here.

The original claims by Nissan on battery life never made sense then nor do they now.
Batteries have limited lifespans. As cylce count goes on, they lose capacity, it is just a simple fact. Also, original reviews of this car did state miles and nobody should have thought from day one they would be getting the 100 miles that Nissan was claiming in its marketing material.

When I got my 2012 leaf I had heard of some pack issues, but it was a lease and I was totally protected. Committing with a purchase to very new tech is always risky.

So in summary:
1) car companies all paint rosy pictures; ignore that and go with objective reviewers of the product
2) only ever be a beta tester for new tech if you can easily afford to cover losses if the new tech turns out to be a dud

I never understood why people were buying these things early on. Even best case the batteries would be worthless after 5-10 years, and there was no way to know how much it would cost to replace. Too many unknowns with no upside to purchasing it. With a lease Nissan got hosed on the residual, not the guy who finances.

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1607
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:07 am

EatsShootsandLeafs wrote:
I never understood why people were buying these things early on. Even best case the batteries would be worthless after 5-10 years, and there was no way to know how much it would cost to replace. Too many unknowns with no upside to purchasing it. With a lease Nissan got hosed on the residual, not the guy who finances.


I'm not going to pretend to speak for everyone, but I will offer one possibility - history. From about 2000 to 2010, there were zero options to buy an EV built by an OEM. If you wanted an EV, you basically had to build it yourself. Prior to 2000, the short wave of EVs were mostly lease-only. At the end of the lease, the cars were taken back (no option to buy) and crushed, much to their owners' dismay. I think in 2010-2012, there was still a lot of wariness that this could happen again, causing many people to buy the car outright. It was anything but given that in 2015, Nissan would still be pushing the envelope with the Leaf and that in 2016, GM would be selling an EV with 200 mile range.

Also, it's worth pointing out that many of those earlier EVs that survived still have a usable original battery. I almost purchased a 2000 Ford Ranger EV myself, with no more than 20% capacity loss. Granted, this was with a NiMH battery and not Lithium, so a completely different beast (NiMH has lower capacity, but better longevity compared to Lithium-anything). But for someone who doesn't understand the differences, I could see why they might expect the battery to last the life of the car. Especially because that's what Nissan was saying.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)

EatsShootsandLeafs
Posts: 427
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:59 am
Delivery Date: 24 Aug 2012

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:47 am

GetOffYourGas wrote:I'm not going to pretend to speak for everyone, but I will offer one possibility - history. From about 2000 to 2010, there were zero options to buy an EV built by an OEM. If you wanted an EV, you basically had to build it yourself. Prior to 2000, the short wave of EVs were mostly lease-only. At the end of the lease, the cars were taken back (no option to buy) and crushed, much to their owners' dismay. I think in 2010-2012, there was still a lot of wariness that this could happen again, causing many people to buy the car outright.
It's true, I understand their concern, but if anything that encourages one even further away from purchasing. A terrible financial mistake would be owning a highly limited run EV, with a lot of strange and new tech, which is no longer actively supported by the manufacturer.

Perhaps if nothing else I suspect we can all agree that early adopters often pay a surcharge, regardless of what they want. Prices come down on new tech so quickly that just waiting a little while pays huge dividends. We've certainly seen that with the Leaf (and lease rates not much over $200/month). And according to cars.com I can buy an almost brand new Leaf now with almost no miles for about $15k.

Leafer77
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:38 pm
Delivery Date: 31 May 2011
Leaf Number: 3713

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:34 am

GetOffYourGas wrote:
EatsShootsandLeafs wrote:
I never understood why people were buying these things early on. Even best case the batteries would be worthless after 5-10 years, and there was no way to know how much it would cost to replace. Too many unknowns with no upside to purchasing it. With a lease Nissan got hosed on the residual, not the guy who finances.


I'm not going to pretend to speak for everyone, but I will offer one possibility - history. From about 2000 to 2010, there were zero options to buy an EV built by an OEM. If you wanted an EV, you basically had to build it yourself. Prior to 2000, the short wave of EVs were mostly lease-only. At the end of the lease, the cars were taken back (no option to buy) and crushed, much to their owners' dismay. I think in 2010-2012, there was still a lot of wariness that this could happen again, causing many people to buy the car outright. It was anything but given that in 2015, Nissan would still be pushing the envelope with the Leaf and that in 2016, GM would be selling an EV with 200 mile range.

Also, it's worth pointing out that many of those earlier EVs that survived still have a usable original battery. I almost purchased a 2000 Ford Ranger EV myself, with no more than 20% capacity loss. Granted, this was with a NiMH battery and not Lithium, so a completely different beast (NiMH has lower capacity, but better longevity compared to Lithium-anything). But for someone who doesn't understand the differences, I could see why they might expect the battery to last the life of the car. Especially because that's what Nissan was saying.


Before I purchased my 2011 Nissan Leaf. I did research about previous electric cars, went to the events to drive the vehicle, read the literature from Nissan about the cars expected performance, etc. I processed all that information and hypothesized, what is the possible worst case scenario to expect. The manufacturer sticker promised close to 100 miles range. I doubted this estimate myself, and predicted closer to 70 - 75, based on several sources.

My daily commute is 60 miles round trip, and I have the option of charging at work. I figured after 3-5 years, I would likely have to charge at work, in order to make it comfortably back home. Instead I had to start charging at work towards the end of my first year, and about every 6 months after the first year things became progressively worse, since my battery degradation was accelerating and impacting my range. It got to the point where charging to full at work barely was getting me home. In the end, my range was reduced to 40 miles.

Yes, in retrospect my conservative estimate was incorrect. Not because of poor planning or analysis of the information that I had at the time, but because of a defect in the battery I was sold by Nissan. This likely includes several other 2011 batteries.

fooljoe
Posts: 640
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:33 am
Delivery Date: 10 Jun 2011
Location: Seal Beach, CA
Contact: Website

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:48 am

GetOffYourGas summed up my thinking almost perfectly when I was one of the first to reserve a Leaf. The memories of EV-1 crushing were still quite fresh on my mind, and magnified by the release of Who Killed the Electric Car? I was very eager to get the first economical production EV to market, and to actually own it.

Also, with respect to leasing vs. buying, the $199/month deals we see now were not around in 2011, so purchasing was the more economical choice, setting aside the at-the-time-unquantifiable risk that it entailed. And prices didn't come down that fast, as it turned out - they actually went up with the 2012 model, and benefits like free charging stations started to get phased out, and the California rebate went from $5000 to $2500.

And as to that risk, I fully understood at the time that batteries degrade and knew what I was possibly getting myself into, but Nissan made the mistake of making promises, and they got burned for it. I didn't expect to get a free replacement battery, and I'm certainly happy that I will (getting installed right now actually), but I and many others are justifiably upset about how this class action lawsuit and capacity warranty were implemented. We all have the same defective batteries, but only those of us who drove the right amount of miles or parked in hot enough places will see any benefit from it.

EatsShootsandLeafs wrote:It's true, I understand their concern, but if anything that encourages one even further away from purchasing. A terrible financial mistake would be owning a highly limited run EV, with a lot of strange and new tech, which is no longer actively supported by the manufacturer.
Quite to the contrary, during the aforementioned EV drought from 2000-2010, the few remaining Rav4-EVs left in private hands were known to sell for as high as $70,000. So while there was a very real possibility that the Leaf would be but the first in a flood of EVs and I'd pay an "early adopter penalty", there was also a chance that the EV would get "killed" again and I'd have a rare "collector's item" that nobody could take away.
RavCharge.com | 2012 Rav4-EV | 2011 Leaf SL w/QC batt replaced 11/20/15 | Clipper Creek CS-60 | EVSEupgraded 2013 Leaf EVSE | 3.84kw PV

Phatcat73
Posts: 425
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:44 pm
Leaf Number: 401511
Location: Buffalo Grove, Il

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:44 pm

A reason why I purchased over leasing - $3k available state credit on purchases of EV's only. Leasing did not apply.
2016 SV; purchased 20-Jan-17, <5k, 98% SOH; 01-Apr-17
2013 SV; purchased 6-March-13 44k, 81% SOH; 3-Apr-17
2015 S; purchased 29-July-14, moved to AZ Nov-2014, 19k, 83% SOH; 30-Mar-17
(LD storage) 2009 Ford Escape Hybrid 4x2), 101k

User avatar
Nubo
Posts: 4361
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 11:01 am
Delivery Date: 31 Oct 2014
Location: Vallejo, CA

Re: Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:03 pm

As I sat down at the dealership in Dec 2011, I was on the fence about buying or leasing. Then reality hit and I realized I didn't want to be on the hook for any gotcha's in V1.0 of an essentially new technology. The EV1 debacle was the result of a manufacturer who felt forced by government to begrudgingly produce a vehicle. It was an adversarial relationship and once the mandate evaporated so did the cars. This time is different in that at least some manufacturers are willingly marketing EVs.

Not this guy though....
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/car ... c/9443715/
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

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