ht2
Posts: 173
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:48 am
Delivery Date: 17 May 2011
Leaf Number: 1698
Location: Silicon Valley, CA

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:34 pm

ahagge wrote:
LeafMuranoDriver wrote:ahagge - How many miles per month are you driving? From the charts, it looks around 4,000 to 6,000 per month.

I think the high mileage is what is keeping the stats up. Once you start driving very little, they seem to drop quite rapidly, then level out.
Sorry for the delayed response, I'm not on as frequently these days.

To answer your question, I'm putting about 16,000 miles/year on the vehicle. At least 1,000 miles per month, every month (but no more than about 1,500 and certainly not in the 4k-6k range!).

FYI, here's the graph, updated through 10/28/16:

Image

What I find interesting (and disheartening) now is that even though the weather has cooled significantly, the battery is losing capacity at an increased rate.

Sigh.


Thanks for the data.
I think there are two types of capacity loss in this data.
Unrecoverable loss caused by battery usage times/mileages and recoverable loss caused by yearly low temperature in the winter.
In September to January, capacity loss looks like twice as normal because above losses accumulate and in February to August, capacity loss cancel out and up down pretty much go to side way.

I am glad I did not see the third type of huge unrecoverable capacity loss caused by high temperature in the August to September usually find in the First generation of the Leaf battery.

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 12086
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:42 am

ht2 wrote:Thanks for the data.
I think there are two types of capacity loss in this data.
Unrecoverable loss caused by battery usage times/mileages and recoverable loss caused by yearly low temperature in the winter.
In September to January, capacity loss looks like twice as normal because above losses accumulate and in February to August, capacity loss cancel out and up down pretty much go to side way.

I am glad I did not see the third type of huge unrecoverable capacity loss caused by high temperature in the August to September usually find in the First generation of the Leaf battery.



there is also another possibility to consider. I found that the more you drive your LEAF, the better the battery numbers become. This has been demonstrated several times by people getting huge mileage on their LEAF before losing a bar, etc.

Now we have known that cycling your pack regularly boosts the numbers. Now whether the numbers are valid or not is anyone's guess but it does result in better top end pack balancing so what does this have to do with seasonal changes? Winter time generally means less efficient driving. its colder, rainier, etc. This means that your pack is cycling deeper than in Summer without changing your driving habits.

The other thing is how much of a difference does it make?

spreadsheet 11.6.16 med.jpg


Here is some recent history on my LEAF. the column "public charges" is kwh received. now I don't differentiate between types of charges but that is a fast charge and you notice the immediate jump in stats?
Now if you look at the GID /ahr available this is only filled out when the charge cycle is completed. you can see two stretches, one of 4 days with minimal change in stats and another of 7 days with a much more significant jump in the numbers. Both stints of complete charges have relatively similar distances but I also have another example of 7 days in a row charging to full but with distances running 20 to 35 miles per day and again, no major changes in the numbers.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 24,261.3 miles.363 GIDAhr 80.66Hx95.95%kwh28.1QCs205,L2's 226
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

retrodog
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:24 am
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2015
Location: Houston/Galveston TX

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:57 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
ht2 wrote:Thanks for the data.
I think there are two types of capacity loss in this data.
Unrecoverable loss caused by battery usage times/mileages and recoverable loss caused by yearly low temperature in the winter.
In September to January, capacity loss looks like twice as normal because above losses accumulate and in February to August, capacity loss cancel out and up down pretty much go to side way.

I am glad I did not see the third type of huge unrecoverable capacity loss caused by high temperature in the August to September usually find in the First generation of the Leaf battery.



there is also another possibility to consider. I found that the more you drive your LEAF, the better the battery numbers become. This has been demonstrated several times by people getting huge mileage on their LEAF before losing a bar, etc.

Now we have known that cycling your pack regularly boosts the numbers. Now whether the numbers are valid or not is anyone's guess but it does result in better top end pack balancing so what does this have to do with seasonal changes? Winter time generally means less efficient driving. its colder, rainier, etc. This means that your pack is cycling deeper than in Summer without changing your driving habits.

The other thing is how much of a difference does it make?

spreadsheet 11.6.16 med.jpg


Here is some recent history on my LEAF. the column "public charges" is kwh received. now I don't differentiate between types of charges but that is a fast charge and you notice the immediate jump in stats?
Now if you look at the GID /ahr available this is only filled out when the charge cycle is completed. you can see two stretches, one of 4 days with minimal change in stats and another of 7 days with a much more significant jump in the numbers. Both stints of complete charges have relatively similar distances but I also have another example of 7 days in a row charging to full but with distances running 20 to 35 miles per day and again, no major changes in the numbers.
I tried zooming in on that spreadsheet and still couldn't read the numbers. I can read parts of them but they are difficult to make out with any certainty. Is there a downloadable version available, or is there a better way to look at them that I'm not trying?
President and only member of the Machine Gun Toting Electric Scooter Riders club, Texas chapter.

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 12086
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:45 pm

retrodog wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
ht2 wrote:Thanks for the data.
I think there are two types of capacity loss in this data.
Unrecoverable loss caused by battery usage times/mileages and recoverable loss caused by yearly low temperature in the winter.
In September to January, capacity loss looks like twice as normal because above losses accumulate and in February to August, capacity loss cancel out and up down pretty much go to side way.

I am glad I did not see the third type of huge unrecoverable capacity loss caused by high temperature in the August to September usually find in the First generation of the Leaf battery.



there is also another possibility to consider. I found that the more you drive your LEAF, the better the battery numbers become. This has been demonstrated several times by people getting huge mileage on their LEAF before losing a bar, etc.

Now we have known that cycling your pack regularly boosts the numbers. Now whether the numbers are valid or not is anyone's guess but it does result in better top end pack balancing so what does this have to do with seasonal changes? Winter time generally means less efficient driving. its colder, rainier, etc. This means that your pack is cycling deeper than in Summer without changing your driving habits.

The other thing is how much of a difference does it make?

spreadsheet 11.6.16 med.jpg


Here is some recent history on my LEAF. the column "public charges" is kwh received. now I don't differentiate between types of charges but that is a fast charge and you notice the immediate jump in stats?
Now if you look at the GID /ahr available this is only filled out when the charge cycle is completed. you can see two stretches, one of 4 days with minimal change in stats and another of 7 days with a much more significant jump in the numbers. Both stints of complete charges have relatively similar distances but I also have another example of 7 days in a row charging to full but with distances running 20 to 35 miles per day and again, no major changes in the numbers.
I tried zooming in on that spreadsheet and still couldn't read the numbers. I can read parts of them but they are difficult to make out with any certainty. Is there a downloadable version available, or is there a better way to look at them that I'm not trying?

oh sorry. first two attempts were too big so had to shrink it. site restrictions are a bit over the top.


https://www.facebook.com/groups/1499072 ... %22R%22%7D

here is link to full size file on Facebook. its a public site so you should be able to see it as long as you have a FB account
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 24,261.3 miles.363 GIDAhr 80.66Hx95.95%kwh28.1QCs205,L2's 226
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Aussie
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:30 am
Location: Dallas

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:14 pm

Aussie wrote:The original battery on my 2011 SL was replaced at the start of March this year. The replacement Lizard stats have recently been dropping like a stone. Capacity is now at 61.66AHr, SOH = 96% and Hx = 92.48. As others have mentioned, capacity was glued at 66.141 for almost 5 months (until mid July) and then has dropped far too quickly for my liking. Since battery replacement I have done just over 5000 miles of mostly day-to-day commuting.

I live in Dallas, TX, so we do get long, hot summers. The car is always parked in a garage. During the week I park on an upper level in the morning (to get the breeze whilst the temp is <90F), then move to the basement at lunchtime (where it tends to be a little cooler). Overnight it is parked in a basement and charged to 80% most days, and rarely to 100%. Observed pack temps only exceeded 100F a few times over summer, even with the hot weather we had.

Are these values consistent with those seen by others on the forum? It all seems a little concerning and isn't boding well for pack longevity.



An update on my battery capacity performance. Winter hasn't slowed the capacity drop-off.

Image

arnis
Posts: 726
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:21 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:17 pm

My 2014 Leaf does not recalculate SOH and Hx values if battery is colder than 15C (less than 5 bars).

I imagine getting a good result will be very hard due to cold chemistry.
And there is not a lot of degradation below that temperature.

Also in summer I went down to 90% (fluctuating +/- 0,5% for 3-4 months). Before winter it went up
to 95% and fluctuated there for a month until it got too cold and now stuck at 95.07%.

It appears with chilly temperatures BMS gets better results than with very warm battery (6 bars).
Once I got to 5 bars after multiple DC charges and Hx changed like 0.03 :lol:

I take 95% (both Hx and SOH) with 5% steps. Those readings are not even close to 1% precision.
My summer/winter difference is the proof.
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

IBeLeaf2
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:13 am
Delivery Date: 20 Feb 2014
Leaf Number: 331893
Location: Nobleboro, ME

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:51 am

tkdbrusco wrote: I'd be willing to bet that there's a few late 2014 production models that got lizard batteries but I think there's really no way to know for sure if your has one unless you ran some readings when it was new and noticed a 292 GID reading.

Based on your statement, I wonder if I have a lizard even with a 1/14 build date. LeafSpy indicated a SOC of 103% and GIDs of 292 several months and a couple thousand miles after purchase.
Blue SV mfg. 1/14
54,600 miles on 4/4/17, 2315 L2, 145 QC
12 bars 284 GIDS 22kWh 66.904AHr 100%SOH 102.82Hx 395.91V
daily travel 15-125 miles, most months include 200+mile days
TOU rate plan, usually charge to 100% overnight.
4.5KW solar, 20kWh backup

tkdbrusco
Posts: 510
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:46 am
Delivery Date: 31 Aug 2014
Contact: Website Facebook Twitter

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:27 pm

IBeLeaf2 wrote:
tkdbrusco wrote: I'd be willing to bet that there's a few late 2014 production models that got lizard batteries but I think there's really no way to know for sure if your has one unless you ran some readings when it was new and noticed a 292 GID reading.

Based on your statement, I wonder if I have a lizard even with a 1/14 build date. LeafSpy indicated a SOC of 103% and GIDs of 292 several months and a couple thousand miles after purchase.


You might have gotten lucky. I think the 292 is only a number derived from Lizard packs. Either way, your pack is holding up well and your climate probably has a lot to do with it. Just got a 259 reading on mine today.
2015 Leaf S w/QC Package. San Jose, CA
www.theevconsultant.com

Valdemar
Posts: 2406
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:21 pm

SOH down to 94% after 10 months and 18,000 miles, 60.5 Ahr, pretty much the same climate/driving/charging patterns as the original pack, hard to tell as I didn't have LeafSpy at the time but at the high level the degradation seems to be tracking close to the original pack which was losing about 8% annually, considering there was no loss for the first 4-5 months/8k miles presumable due to the hidden buffer in these new packs I might see it dropping faster in the future now that buffer is gone. Not entirely unexpected, but I don't really care much at this point.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB)
59.7AHr, SOH 93%, 118k miles
9kW Solar

Valdemar
Posts: 2406
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:41 pm

SOH is up to 95% with warmer temps after 1 year and 23k miles, it does bode well with the title of this topic. The upcoming summer will be a real test as I've now burnt through the top buffer.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB)
59.7AHr, SOH 93%, 118k miles
9kW Solar

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