DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13223
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Lizard Pack NOT Holding Up

Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:46 pm

bolshevik36 wrote:I may have asked a poorly constructed question, considering your points, but I still didnt get a single answer!

I just want to know what my range/capacity will be on 5 yr old Leaf; in this case the 2011's. I need to make sure buying a Leaf makes sense economically which is why I am asking this question. Even 15-20 miles is very useful for my uses, so Im thinking he battery can lose 60%+ capacity/range and still be useful errand/shopping car for our family.

Also so some of you are saying using it more, with full charges, prolongs the battery life? That is counter-intuitive no?


you dont provide enough information to answer the question other than depending on your location you could have between 40 and 75% of your remaining range left.


and to clarify; I never said driving it more prolongs battery life. I said driving it more increases your battery's available capacity. so whether you look at it as a muscle exercised will perform better or the LEAF's BMS is adjusting to better address your needs, so be it.

Now does this complicate matters? well of course it does which leads us back to the fact that without a lot of details about where you live, what your needs are, garage or not, etc. it all matters but even with all that, one can only generalize. you say 20 miles is "very useful" then you are set!
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 1823
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Lizard Pack NOT Holding Up

Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:00 pm

bolshevik36 wrote:I may have asked a poorly constructed question, considering your points, but I still didnt get a single answer!

I just want to know what my range/capacity will be on 5 yr old Leaf; in this case the 2011's. I need to make sure buying a Leaf makes sense economically which is why I am asking this question. Even 15-20 miles is very useful for my uses, so Im thinking he battery can lose 60%+ capacity/range and still be useful errand/shopping car for our family.

Also so some of you are saying using it more, with full charges, prolongs the battery life? That is counter-intuitive no?


If you are satisfied with 20 miles on a charge, a 5 year old Leaf should be OK for you. When my 2011 was down to 8 capacity bars, I was still making my 52-mile roundtrip commute using A/C. It would not have been possible to make 50 miles on a charge at cold temperatures (even without using heat/defrost). It was great to be driving a "new car" after Nissan replaced the original battery until the car met its demise. I have always charged to 100% and the "lizard" battery in the 2015 seems to be doing better than the original and replacement batteries in the 2011.

Gerry
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

cwerdna
Posts: 8217
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Lizard Pack NOT Holding Up

Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:19 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
bolshevik36 wrote:I may have asked a poorly constructed question, considering your points, but I still didnt get a single answer!

I just want to know what my range/capacity will be on 5 yr old Leaf; in this case the 2011's. I need to make sure buying a Leaf makes sense economically which is why I am asking this question. Even 15-20 miles is very useful for my uses, so Im thinking he battery can lose 60%+ capacity/range and still be useful errand/shopping car for our family.

you dont provide enough information to answer the question other than depending on your location you could have between 40 and 75% of your remaining range left.

Yep.

DaveinOlyWA wrote:Now does this complicate matters? well of course it does which leads us back to the fact that without a lot of details about where you live, what your needs are, garage or not, etc. it all matters but even with all that, one can only generalize. you say 20 miles is "very useful" then you are set!

Yep.

Let's look at it another way. TonyWilliams put together range charts at viewtopic.php?p=101293. They're reasonably accurate. For an '11 thru '15 w/brand new battery, if on a full charge, you drive a steady continuous 35 mph (no stopping) or achieve 6.3 miles/kWh for a trip, you should be able to go about 132 miles until battery exhaustion (dead) on level ground, no winds (head or tail) and no HVAC usage.

Edmunds got exactly 132.0 miles doing that at http://www.edmunds.com/nissan/leaf/2011 ... r-end.html.

If you went 75 mph or achieved 3.0 miles/kWh for the trip, you'd only make it ~62 miles.

Further down, he has range charts for losing up to 4 capacity bars (e.g. Use this 63% chart for a battery that has 8 of 12 capacity bar segments.) A 4 bar loser would do 83 and 39 miles respectively, until dead.

But most people don't drive their cars until dead because you'd need to either have a generator, a charging station to push the car or need a tow to a charging station. Cut it too close or have a detour or misjudge? Have fun. The instrumentation in '11 and '12 Leafs is frankly crap, can cause unnecessary range anxiety and cause you (depending on your personality) to leave say 20 to ~35% usable capacity UNUSED! (i.e. calling it quits too early)

One MUST use something like Leaf Spy on those cars if you want to ride around near the bottom. Heck, you should for any Leaf if you ride around near the bottom.

There are many other factors that will reduce range such as heater AC use, increased rolling friction (from rain, slush, snow, etc.), winds, etc.

Can you update your location info via your user name in the upper right > User Control Panel > Profile tab? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

In Phoenix, the Leaf had only been out ~21 months and there was already a 4 bar loser in Tony's range test: viewtopic.php?p=228326. Per http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Batt ... y_Behavior, the 4 bar loser probably had 60-66.25% capacity remaining. Hot climates are murder on '11 to '12 Leaf batteries.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

TimLee
Posts: 2811
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:40 am
Delivery Date: 17 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2026
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: Lizard Pack NOT Holding Up

Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:45 pm

bolshevik36 wrote:... Also so some of you are saying using it more, with full charges, prolongs the battery life? ...

No one said that.
You read what Dave said and did inaccurate reading between the lines to come to that conclusion.

Limited use and not charging to 100% and occasionally deep discharging just results in inaccurate battery stats.

The slowest capacity degradation results from keeping the battery in the mid range of charge, someting like 35% to 80%.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

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JPWhite
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Leaf Number: 5734
Location: Hendersonville TN
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Re: Lizard Pack NOT Holding Up

Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:56 pm

bolshevik36 wrote:I may have asked a poorly constructed question, considering your points, but I still didnt get a single answer!

I just want to know what my range/capacity will be on 5 yr old Leaf; in this case the 2011's. I need to make sure buying a Leaf makes sense economically which is why I am asking this question. Even 15-20 miles is very useful for my uses, so Im thinking he battery can lose 60%+ capacity/range and still be useful errand/shopping car for our family.

Also so some of you are saying using it more, with full charges, prolongs the battery life? That is counter-intuitive no?


I can only give you my experience.

At 87,000 miles and three bare down, my 2011 max range is about 55 miles, 45 to LBW.
--
JP White
http://jpwhitenissanleaf.com
Blue SL-e, Res 4/22/10, Ord 3/29/11, Del 7/30/11
110,000 Miles.
Lost 5 Capacity bars
7/18/13 (29,206), 8/25/14 (51,728), 7/12/15 (71.108), 5/12/16 (88,362), 10/17/16 (96,532)
New Battery 12/3/16 (98,956)

cwerdna
Posts: 8217
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Lizard Pack NOT Holding Up

Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:59 pm

JPWhite wrote:I can only give you my experience.

At 87,000 miles and three bare down, my 2011 max range is about 55 miles, 45 to LBW.

And for bolshevik36's edification, after LBW, there's VLBW then turtle then dead.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

bolshevik36
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:14 pm
Leaf Number: 416110
Location: San Bernardino CA

Re: Lizard Pack NOT Holding Up

Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:07 pm

Wow the amount of condescension for simply asking questions is pretty boggling considering this is a forum for Leaf owners, which I assume invites new and old alike.

Im in the IE (45miles east of DT LA) and the Leaf will be garaged. Daily typical commute is under 40 miles, sometimes a little bit more.

For those of you who did provide actual #'s, thanks a lot! Those #'s actually encourage my purchase, especially looking at the 2011 at 87k still commuting 50miles. Thats what i needed!
2013 Leaf S (w/6.6 package)

bolshevik36
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:14 pm
Leaf Number: 416110
Location: San Bernardino CA

Re: Lizard Pack NOT Holding Up

Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:07 pm

JPWhite wrote:
bolshevik36 wrote:I may have asked a poorly constructed question, considering your points, but I still didnt get a single answer!

I just want to know what my range/capacity will be on 5 yr old Leaf; in this case the 2011's. I need to make sure buying a Leaf makes sense economically which is why I am asking this question. Even 15-20 miles is very useful for my uses, so Im thinking he battery can lose 60%+ capacity/range and still be useful errand/shopping car for our family.

Also so some of you are saying using it more, with full charges, prolongs the battery life? That is counter-intuitive no?


I can only give you my experience.

At 87,000 miles and three bare down, my 2011 max range is about 55 miles, 45 to LBW.



Do you usually charge to 80 or 100%?
2013 Leaf S (w/6.6 package)

cwerdna
Posts: 8217
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Lizard Pack NOT Holding Up

Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:38 pm

bolshevik36 wrote:Wow the amount of condescension for simply asking questions is pretty boggling considering this is a forum for Leaf owners, which I assume invites new and old alike.

Look, we didn't have sufficient info from you to give you an even semi-accurate or useful answer. We also didn't know your background knowledge, assumptions, misconceptions, whether your understood the concepts we were trying to convey (e.g. total kWh usable, miles/kWh, degradation, etc.) and so on. Some people call it quits even BEFORE LBW.

As I posted at viewtopic.php?p=429850#p429850:

viewtopic.php?p=261457#p261457 was an example of something very vague of someone complaining of "getting a whopping 30 miles per charge here in frigid Chicago" after having lost no capacity bars. They did answer the questionnaire but there was still a fair amount of back and forth.

The above person had a BRAND NEW Leaf but was in Chicago and had no ability to charge at home nor work.

There are plenty of Leaf drivers who don't even know about the capacity bars or are totally confused about range, like viewtopic.php?f=27&t=16446 and viewtopic.php?p=268304#p268304.

bolshevik36 wrote:Im in the IE (45miles east of DT LA) and the Leaf will be garaged. Daily typical commute is under 40 miles, sometimes a little bit more.

So Cal heat will be not so kind to the battery, in the long run. If it cools down at night considerably, it might be better to park it outside so the battery cools. I've looked at battery temps via Leaf Spy and have a digital thermometer in my garage. The battery pack has a lot of thermal mass and takes a long time to cool down. If it's 60 to 70 F in my garage yet at night it's going to be 40 to 49 F, and my battery is at say 75 F when I come home... well, it's going to get cooler faster at the outside lower temps.

bolshevik36 wrote:For those of you who did provide actual #'s, thanks a lot! Those #'s actually encourage my purchase, especially looking at the 2011 at 87k still commuting 50miles. Thats what i needed!

In viewtopic.php?p=228326, Blue494 on an under 21 month old '11 Leaf in Phoenix was down 4 capacity bars at under 29K miles and only made it 59.3 miles until battery exhaustion on a a steady 100 kph (~62 mph) drive w/no HVAC usage. http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real ... #four_bars says (search for 494) that the 4th bar was lost at 28,190 miles.

The heater on '11 and '12s is power hungry and slow to heat. There's little free waste heat in an EV, so it takes energy to heat the cabin.

Others, like this guy have more pessimistic views for winter.... but he might be on the mark for very cold climates:
viewtopic.php?p=440165#p440165
viewtopic.php?p=428344#p428344
viewtopic.php?p=415539#p415539

And, as the battery degrades, if trips were on the edge of whatever the comfort level is, they'll get harder and harder, esp. in winter.

The guy at viewtopic.php?f=31&t=20275&p=431911#p431911 commutes 130 miles/day and to charge fully on both ends. But per that post, he has to charge in the middle on both legs now since he's down 5 capacity bars. He's in the PNW, which is a very gentle climate for the batteries, vs. So Cal. Hit hit 100K miles on his '11 in Dec 2013 per http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/ ... tric-miles.
Last edited by cwerdna on Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Valdemar
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Lizard Pack NOT Holding Up

Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:37 pm

The original 11/12 pack would lose 8-10% annually in your area. I could no longer make my 60 mile commute after 4.5 years and 85k miles, with pack down to 60%, range was about 50 miles mixed careful driving w/out using climate control. I observed capacity loss rate accelerating with time, which probably had to do with deeper and more frequent cycling of the pack. There's still hope the Lizard pack performs better, but the initial reports are somewhat discouraging.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
53.92AHr, SOH 84.5%, 140k miles

9kW Solar

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