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JPWhite
Gold Member
Posts: 1753
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:41 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Jul 2011
Leaf Number: 5734
Location: Hendersonville TN
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Re: Lizard Pack NOT Holding Up

Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:37 am

bolshevik36 wrote:
JPWhite wrote:
bolshevik36 wrote:I may have asked a poorly constructed question, considering your points, but I still didnt get a single answer!

I just want to know what my range/capacity will be on 5 yr old Leaf; in this case the 2011's. I need to make sure buying a Leaf makes sense economically which is why I am asking this question. Even 15-20 miles is very useful for my uses, so Im thinking he battery can lose 60%+ capacity/range and still be useful errand/shopping car for our family.

Also so some of you are saying using it more, with full charges, prolongs the battery life? That is counter-intuitive no?


I can only give you my experience.

At 87,000 miles and three bare down, my 2011 max range is about 55 miles, 45 to LBW.



Do you usually charge to 80 or 100%?


I charge to 100% (93% in reality) in the morning before leaving for work. This allows for speed limit drive all the way.

Nissan DCFC leaves the car at about 75% SOC at "80%" max charge. I sometimes top off with L2 if I have the opportunity at lunch. If I only have 75% to get home it's a max of 65 to cover the 38 miles home and arrive close to or slightly past LBW.
--
JP White
http://jpwhitenissanleaf.com
Blue SL-e, Res 4/22/10, Ord 3/29/11, Del 7/30/11
110,000 Miles.
Lost 5 Capacity bars
7/18/13 (29,206), 8/25/14 (51,728), 7/12/15 (71.108), 5/12/16 (88,362), 10/17/16 (96,532)
New Battery 12/3/16 (98,956)

User avatar
mwalsh
Posts: 9482
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:10 am
Delivery Date: 05 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0213
Location: Garden Grove, CA

Re: Lizard Pack NOT Holding Up

Wed Apr 27, 2016 1:03 am

JPWhite wrote:So you've done less than 2,000 miles in 5 months?

If so capacity loss is running about 4 GID's/month (1.5%) without the addition of significant cycle losses..


Yes, and my new commute of just 10 miles on surface streets with many high torque starts apprears to be more detrimental to battery longevity than my old 30 mile commute of (mostly) cruising with occasional stop and start segments.
2011 Blue Ocean SL with 72,000 miles.
2015 pack under warranty 12/30/15.
Tinted windows.
Michelin MXV4 tires.
L1 EVSE upgrade.
FIAMM horns.
Superbright LED lighting.
2013 sun visors.
LED shifter.
Heated seats.
GT-R map lamp lenses.
AV L2 EVSE.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12406
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Lizard Pack NOT Holding Up

Sun May 01, 2016 9:41 am

mwalsh wrote:
JPWhite wrote:So you've done less than 2,000 miles in 5 months?

If so capacity loss is running about 4 GID's/month (1.5%) without the addition of significant cycle losses..


Yes, and my new commute of just 10 miles on surface streets with many high torque starts apprears to be more detrimental to battery longevity than my old 30 mile commute of (mostly) cruising with occasional stop and start segments.



I think the distance driven and charging habits are more to blame. I rarely speed on the freeways but I also rarely drive sanely when on surface streets (not my observation mind you! since my driving is PERFECTLY fine all the time...) and my measured capacity gains and losses are more determined by driving distances and charging habits.

charge often and fully, drive a lot; battery stats high. drive less, charge every few days rarely to full and battery whines...

Now this was always the case with the 2011 but their came a time when the stats would no longer recover no matter what I did. on my 2013, I am still able to manipulate my battery numbers after 29 months and 36,000 miles. This is far far far beyond what my 2011 could do.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 27,000 miles.363GID Ahr 79.13Hx95.17%kwh28.1QCs238,L2's 251
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GRA
Posts: 7753
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Lizard Pack NOT Holding Up

Sun May 01, 2016 4:44 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
mwalsh wrote:
JPWhite wrote:So you've done less than 2,000 miles in 5 months?

If so capacity loss is running about 4 GID's/month (1.5%) without the addition of significant cycle losses..


Yes, and my new commute of just 10 miles on surface streets with many high torque starts apprears to be more detrimental to battery longevity than my old 30 mile commute of (mostly) cruising with occasional stop and start segments.



I think the distance driven and charging habits are more to blame. I rarely speed on the freeways but I also rarely drive sanely when on surface streets (not my observation mind you! since my driving is PERFECTLY fine all the time...) and my measured capacity gains and losses are more determined by driving distances and charging habits.

charge often and fully, drive a lot; battery stats high. drive less, charge every few days rarely to full and battery whines...

Now this was always the case with the 2011 but their came a time when the stats would no longer recover no matter what I did. on my 2013, I am still able to manipulate my battery numbers after 29 months and 36,000 miles. This is far far far beyond what my 2011 could do.

I would expect faster degradation with greater discharge rates, and suspect the difference between the two of you (absent any detailed data comparing your driving styles), is due to the temperature differences between PNW and SoCal.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

golfcart
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:08 am
Delivery Date: 21 Nov 2015
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Re: Lizard Pack NOT Holding Up

Mon May 02, 2016 4:50 am

edit... sorry, moved post to other lizard pack thread.
2015 S with Charge Package

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mwalsh
Posts: 9482
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:10 am
Delivery Date: 05 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0213
Location: Garden Grove, CA

Re: Lizard Pack NOT Holding Up

Tue May 03, 2016 12:32 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:I think the distance driven and charging habits are more to blame. I rarely speed on the freeways but I also rarely drive sanely when on surface streets (not my observation mind you! since my driving is PERFECTLY fine all the time...) and my measured capacity gains and losses are more determined by driving distances and charging habits.

charge often and fully, drive a lot; battery stats high. drive less, charge every few days rarely to full and battery whines...


You could be onto something. This is after another few days back at my old job for a special project:

4/30/16: AHr=63.91 CAP=97.43% Hlth/Hx=94.14% SOH=97% Gids=282. Mileage: 58,784

So I've changed the thread title up a bit, and will give Nissan the benefit of the doubt...for now.
2011 Blue Ocean SL with 72,000 miles.
2015 pack under warranty 12/30/15.
Tinted windows.
Michelin MXV4 tires.
L1 EVSE upgrade.
FIAMM horns.
Superbright LED lighting.
2013 sun visors.
LED shifter.
Heated seats.
GT-R map lamp lenses.
AV L2 EVSE.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12406
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Lizard Pack NOT Holding Up

Tue May 03, 2016 1:49 pm

mwalsh wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:I think the distance driven and charging habits are more to blame. I rarely speed on the freeways but I also rarely drive sanely when on surface streets (not my observation mind you! since my driving is PERFECTLY fine all the time...) and my measured capacity gains and losses are more determined by driving distances and charging habits.

charge often and fully, drive a lot; battery stats high. drive less, charge every few days rarely to full and battery whines...


You could be onto something. This is after another few days back at my old job for a special project:

4/30/16: AHr=63.91 CAP=97.43% Hlth/Hx=94.14% SOH=97% Gids=282. Mileage: 58,784

So I've changed the thread title up a bit, and will give Nissan the benefit of the doubt...for now.


the last 2 weeks on my 2013 have been the perfect example. First off, I went almost 2 weeks of light driving only fully charging one time in nearly 2 weeks. I did charge but only for an hour or two so never full, never empty, just bouncing around the mid SOC ranges. I eventually hit the 59 ahr range which was fully expected along with the 91% Hx, both numbers I had seen in Aug 2015 when I went thru a similar low driving period coupled with an 11 day vacation when the LEAF did not drive at all.

I fully charged on Monday the 25th and had 58.44 ahr, 88.62% Hx, and 19.6 kwh available; a new low water mark. After 35,000 miles, I guess it was simply time for my battery to start its fade. I drove 48 miles on Monday then started a 5 day run where I had to fast charge once in the morning and once in the afternoon to make the LEAF work. This was a setup to see if my battery stats could come back. It took over 600 miles but the results are unmistakeable.

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2016/05 ... 36000.html
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 27,000 miles.363GID Ahr 79.13Hx95.17%kwh28.1QCs238,L2's 251
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
mwalsh
Posts: 9482
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Delivery Date: 05 Jan 2011
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Location: Garden Grove, CA

Re: Lizard Pack NOT Holding Up

Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

mwalsh wrote:12/30/15: AHr=63.80 CAP=97.26% Hlth/Hx=100.00% Gids=277. Mileage: 56,588
1/24/16: AHr=63.53 CAP=96.85% Hlth/Hx=95.57% Gids=278. Mileage: 56,886
2/22/16: AHr=62.55 CAP=95.35% Hlth/Hx=93.99% SOH=98% Gids=273. Mileage: 57,363
3/19/16: AHr=62.92 CAP=95.91% Hlth/Hx=94.76% SOH=98% Gids=278. Mileage: 57,841
4/22/16: AHr=62.09 CAP=94.65% Hlth/Hx=93.26% SOH=97% Gids=274. Mileage: 58,295
4/30/16: AHr=63.91 CAP=97.43% Hlth/Hx=96.14% SOH=100% Gids=282. Mileage: 58,784



5/20/16: AHr=66.14 CAP=100.83% Hlth/Hx=98.82% SOH=100% Gids=283. Mileage: 59,457

Look at that jump in AHr!

Changing thread title to "Lizard Pack Will Hold Up IF Your Driving Patterns Support It"
2011 Blue Ocean SL with 72,000 miles.
2015 pack under warranty 12/30/15.
Tinted windows.
Michelin MXV4 tires.
L1 EVSE upgrade.
FIAMM horns.
Superbright LED lighting.
2013 sun visors.
LED shifter.
Heated seats.
GT-R map lamp lenses.
AV L2 EVSE.

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Marktm
Gold Member
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:49 am
Delivery Date: 09 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 022737

Re: Lizard Pack NOT Holding Up

Fri May 20, 2016 8:07 am

mwalsh wrote:
mwalsh wrote:12/30/15: AHr=63.80 CAP=97.26% Hlth/Hx=100.00% Gids=277. Mileage: 56,588
1/24/16: AHr=63.53 CAP=96.85% Hlth/Hx=95.57% Gids=278. Mileage: 56,886
2/22/16: AHr=62.55 CAP=95.35% Hlth/Hx=93.99% SOH=98% Gids=273. Mileage: 57,363
3/19/16: AHr=62.92 CAP=95.91% Hlth/Hx=94.76% SOH=98% Gids=278. Mileage: 57,841
4/22/16: AHr=62.09 CAP=94.65% Hlth/Hx=93.26% SOH=97% Gids=274. Mileage: 58,295
4/30/16: AHr=63.91 CAP=97.43% Hlth/Hx=96.14% SOH=100% Gids=282. Mileage: 58,784



5/20/16: AHr=66.14 CAP=100.83% Hlth/Hx=98.82% SOH=100% Gids=283. Mileage: 59,457

Look at that jump in AHr!


Hoping to get a "Lizard" later this summer so all this is of great interest - we'll see.

Interesting that your AH reading is greater now than new. Am I interpreting this correctly? Usually (in the FLA world of off-gridders) the measure of actual AH would be a really good indicator of battery health/capacity (when corrected by Peukert/temperature if more than moderate discharge). Is there enough variability in the "pack" voltage to affect the real KWH available? Seems avg. temp of the "pack" would be significant also. From LeafSpy data - is there any indication that number/depth of capacity loss of individual cell packs can predict early failures (or not)? There may be this type of analysis done on the early batteries - there is so much out there on this subject!

One must wonder what algorithms are used to produce the readings - it is an estimate!

My limited experience so far (don't have Leaf Spy working yet) with a used Leaf (in hot Texas) has been that deep/deep discharges and full charges seems to "reset" the capacity - with more driving range - could be my imagination - or a GOM problem. Don't have any significant experience with DC/QC - mostly level II with the 3.3KW charger.
2012 Leaf SL; 36,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.
Rural cabin with 6750 watts Grid tied PV. Off-grid solar Leaf charging capable (level II).

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Nubo
Posts: 4573
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Re: Lizard Pack NOT Holding Up

Fri May 20, 2016 11:24 am

mwalsh wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:I think the distance driven and charging habits are more to blame. I rarely speed on the freeways but I also rarely drive sanely when on surface streets (not my observation mind you! since my driving is PERFECTLY fine all the time...) and my measured capacity gains and losses are more determined by driving distances and charging habits.

charge often and fully, drive a lot; battery stats high. drive less, charge every few days rarely to full and battery whines...


You could be onto something. This is after another few days back at my old job for a special project:

4/30/16: AHr=63.91 CAP=97.43% Hlth/Hx=94.14% SOH=97% Gids=282. Mileage: 58,784

So I've changed the thread title up a bit, and will give Nissan the benefit of the doubt...for now.


Thanks. You might want to edit your initial post to reflect that because I was scratching my head for 6 pages wondering what kind of driving patterns we were talking about ;)
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

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